Airline passengers subsidizing private aviation

On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:07:43 GMT, "William Black"
wrote:


"Tchiowa" wrote in message
roups.com...
On Apr 18, 3:10 pm, "William Black"

Try and look at something about a complaint by Airbus Industry to the WTO
about Boeing and the US government in 1992, revived in 2005.

You mean the one that didn't get anywhere but Airbus was using to try
to justify the enormous and constant subsidies they get from European
governments?

No.

The one where Boeing gets a huge wadge of cash from Uncle Sugar for military
research and does research into civilian or dual use applications that it
then marks 'classified'.

Now you've taken it one step further. Are you saying Boeing
violates the "classified" notice by sharing the information with
unauthorized employees?

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

"Hatunen" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:07:43 GMT, "William Black"
wrote:


"Tchiowa" wrote in message
groups.com...
On Apr 18, 3:10 pm, "William Black"

Try and look at something about a complaint by Airbus Industry to the
WTO
about Boeing and the US government in 1992, revived in 2005.

You mean the one that didn't get anywhere but Airbus was using to try
to justify the enormous and constant subsidies they get from European
governments?

No.

The one where Boeing gets a huge wadge of cash from Uncle Sugar for
military
research and does research into civilian or dual use applications that it
then marks 'classified'.

Now you've taken it one step further. Are you saying Boeing
violates the "classified" notice by sharing the information with
unauthorized employees?

Goodness no.

That would be illegal.

I'm saying that the US government knowingly funds projects that have civil
applications by covert methods.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
William Black writes:

Not only is that not proven ...

Interesting. I was speculating, and you immediately say that there is no
proof. Hmm.

... it is used by the government of the USA as a
justification for spying on European companies and giving the information
to
US companies.

Do you object to the U.S. using the same methods as Europe? It's hard for
the
honest guys to win if the other side is cheating.

I object to the US government using a supposition to drive its policy.

You know, spying on people because someone may just be spying on them,
invading people because they think they may have nuclear weapons...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"Hatunen" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:05:46 GMT, "William Black"
wrote:


"Hatunen" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 08:10:00 GMT, "William Black"
wrote:


"Hatunen" wrote in message
m...
On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 19:28:26 GMT, "William Black"
wrote:


"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
news:ts6a23pbm30j6lo4ociuqq996tk555uta2@4ax. com...
William Black writes:


And Boeing and its hidden subsidies isn't?

No, it isn't. That's why it has been around for so long. What
"hidden"
subsidies do you have in mind?

The ones the US pays on its huge military research contracts that are
really
a way of subsidising civil aircraft development.

Hmm. Boeing built the 747 "on spec". Which aircraft are you
thinking of?.

Try and look at something about a complaint by Airbus Industry to the
WTO
about Boeing and the US government in 1992, revived in 2005.

You're going to ave to be more specific. What I found involves
government subsidies but not military subsidies.

The Airbus case is that the US government gives Boeing large sums of money
for research into military projects and Boeing uses the technology
developed
in its civilian products.

Somehow that doesn't sound so awful, so long as it is legitimate
military research. Or are they suposed to not use info they get
from military research, should it be some sort of secret?

The research is funded as 'military' but is really civil.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"TMOliver" wrote in message
...

"William Black" wrote ...

Oh come on.

Tata just bought British Steel.

Laxmi Mittal just bought Arcelor.

Let me know when an Indian buys US Steel...


Well, I suppose that as parlous a shape as they are in, US steel companies
sell at a far higher price than the rusting hulks of the once modest
simply deteriorated British steel industry. Just as the UK's automakers
were sold on the Sheriff's stoop to furriners, now you all are selling off
the rest of the patrimony

We've worked out that we don't care who owns the place, after all, we used
to own a third of the planet and it didn't make us rich.

What matters is where the jobs are...

Oh yes, and being able to have a really good party...

It's far easier to "make a bundle" in the US real estate market than by
purchasing US steel companies, and had you traveled in the US in recent
years to catch the smell of curry drifting from the owner's apartments in
all those small town motels, you might better appreciate the extent of
Indian investment

The US currently has a far higher Indian population than the UK.

Indeed it's twice the size.

This is a recent phenomenon. The demographics of the US Indian population
is also radically different to that in the UK.

But London remains the biggest Indian city outside of India...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

On 2007-04-18 09:30:11 -0700, "karl gruber" said:

You're really a pro writer...........in disquise! Right?

Good post,
Karl

Thanks, but no. Having to write for a job would take all the fun out of
it. I think it would destroy what little is left of my imagination.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
news:200704180039008930-christophercampbell@hotmailcom...
On 2007-04-17 21:37:31 -0700, Tchiowa said:

On Apr 17, 11:37 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Apologies if someone else has already posted this:

http://us.cnn.com/2007/TRAVEL/04/16/....ap/index.html

Somebody really hates GA.

When I read the article it didn't sound at all like someone who hates
General Aviation. It sounded like a standard CNN attack on business.
("globe trotting corporate executive")

I wasn't sure if I was reading CNN or the Worker's World Daily. No
that there is that much difference any more.

Don't you just love revolutionary rhetoric? And yet CNN is using it more
and more. I expect to hear "running dogs of capitalism" any day now.

I can see it now:

"Once again we see that globe-trotting corporate bandits and their lackey
pilots are stealing bread from the mouths of the oppressed masses of air
travelers. The running dogs of capitalism must be brought to heel. For an
unbiased report, we turn to Comrade Barbara Boxer, who has joined CNN
after retiring from the oppressive establishment patriarchy. Comrade
Boxer, can the entrenched pigs at Congress do anything to stop this theft,
or are they too corrupt to do anything about even this?"

"I am sad to say that Congress and the Administration are still controlled
by capitalist gangsters, Comrade Anderson Cooper. But of course, you know
this, being a part of the white male oppressive patriarchy, not to mention
a deluded religious fanatic ever since your conversion to Islam. And what
are these so-called 'general aviation' planes doing? Hauling their fat cat
bosses around in unparalleled luxury as they flit from one smoke-filled
room to another, planning their next nefarious assault on the poor working
slaves of the world."

"What about Comrade Gore? Doesn't he also fly a private jet?"

"Of course not. Comrade Gore's jet belongs to the people, as does our
beloved Gore. Therefore they gratefully support his travels in his
never-ending fight against capitalist gangsters by using the pigs' own
tools against them."

"Thank you, Comrade Boxer. Now, for an alternate point of view, we have
Comrade Patty Murray, a Senator from the State of Washington. Tell us how
your views differ from those of Comrade Boxer, Comrade Murray."

"Comrade Boxer is a Trotskyite revisionist pig, but otherwise she is right
on target with this one, Brother."

"And so, despite overwhelming unanimity that the captalist bosses and
their corporate tools should no longer be allowed to use the airways for
free, President Clinton refuses to budge from the promise made by her
corrupt husband when he was President -- that there will be no user fees
for these robber barons or their lackeys."
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:59:55 GMT, "William Black"
wrote:


"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
.. .
William Black writes:

Not only is that not proven ...

Interesting. I was speculating, and you immediately say that there is no
proof. Hmm.

... it is used by the government of the USA as a
justification for spying on European companies and giving the information
to
US companies.

Do you object to the U.S. using the same methods as Europe? It's hard for
the
honest guys to win if the other side is cheating.

I object to the US government using a supposition to drive its policy.

You know, spying on people because someone may just be spying on them,
invading people because they think they may have nuclear weapons...

The big problem was not that Bush invaded thinking Iraq had
nuclear weapons, the problem was that Irag didn't have nuclear
weapons and the President either did or should have known it.



--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

"William Black" wrote ....


The US currently has a far higher Indian population than the UK.

Indeed it's twice the size.

Interesting admission based on your earlier comments investments (and
most of the migration "employment oriented" are in the upper 50% of US
income earners). Of course , to paraphtrase, "migration is the sincereest
form of investment". On the other hand, visibly "rich" Indians residing in
the US are a Southern California thing, invisible except in Houston anda
handful of similar cities.

This is a recent phenomenon. The demographics of the US Indian population
is also radically different to that in the UK.

We do have more Patels I presume.....

But London remains the biggest Indian city outside of India...


But hardly an "Indian" city, as San Antonio, the largest Mexican city
outside of Mexico is clearly far more Mexican than London is Indian.

One of the interesting demographic comparisons....

While Indians in the UK are concentrated in the cities (and in identifiable
neighborhoods/areas in most cases), in the US the largest number are found
dispersed in small towns and cities (and with no identifiable housing
patterns. While the high-techs are the best known and most recognizable,
medical/health professionals make up the largest group after
"individual/family business owners", all those pure capitalists, with
educators at the university level being another substantial segment of the
overall population.

Indian migration to the US is certainly a post 1960, maybe 1970, phenom.

TMO

On Apr 17, 10:04 am, Denny wrote:
So, do the fees collected by the commercial airlines through their
fares and then paid to various agencies completely cover the costs of
building and operating airports and the air traffic control system?

Nope..

denny

Nor should they have to.
They are part of a transportation system, just like roads and
highways.
Roads and highways get subsidized; the people using them may not pay
for them, and people who don't drive may pay quite a bit for them.
We build roads and interchanges to allow traffic to get to businesses
big enough to warrant them (Bass Pro got megamillions from San Antonio
and some city in PHX area; subsidized fishing anyone?)
Since roads get built with sales taxes, property taxes, and other
taxes in addition to gas taxes, it is obvious that transportation
systems all get subsidized. Transportation systems are enablers of
other businesses and such.