First Time Buyer. Help!

"KayInPA" wrote in message
...

suggestion and fly different kinds of aircraft. First on the list is
the FBO's Piper Arrow.

If the FBO has a reasonably maintained Arrow for rent, why buy?
Retractables usually get much less use at most FBOs than trainers, and
certainly the FBO will realize that the potential customer to rent an Arrow
is someone to take the airplane on trips. The odds are very high you can
negotiate reasoanble terms for weekend or week-long trips in the airplane.

Jay, that's the lure indeed. Thanks so much for your post!

If you are going to buy the airplane as a partnership, then you will not
necessarily be able to use it "on a momen't notice" to go to Florida.
Besides, on a practical basis you need a good deal of flexibility in your
schedule to fly that kind of trip in a piston single even if you are an
experienced IFR pilot in an extremely well-equipped high performance single.

I really think you should just rent for a while and figure out what types of
trips truly fit into your schedule and lifestyle and thus what type of
airplane you really need. If you buy and airplane to meet your needs as a
private student or as an instrument student, the odds are high that your
needs will change and make the airplane a very expensive short-term asset.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"KayInPA" wrote in message
...

This is something to consider. It's very tempting to try and get a
fast airplane. But I think you're right, and also: how fast can you
get within our price range and still have a solid aircraft with few
squawks?

Mid-1960's vintage Mooneys can be an excellent value for a 130-knot
airplane -- perhaps cheaper than a 182.

Insuring a retractable like a Mooney will probably be a lot easier for you
after you get your IFR rating --- yet another reason to hold off on an
airplane purchase for now.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...
In my mind these are the reasons to buy an airplane:

(1) You fly so many trips that you frequently run into scheduling
conflicts
with your local rental airplanes

(2) You plan to fly IFR and cannot locate a rental airplane equipped with
the redundant equipment you prefer for those flights, i.e. backup vacuum
pump or electric AI

(3) You have concerns about the maintenance of the locally available
rental
airplanes

(4) You wish to fly an airplane type or class which is not practically
available for rental, i.e. a high performance complex airplane

(5) Pride of ownership -- this is fine on its own as a rationalization as
long as you realize you will pay SUBSTANTIALLY more money to own an
airplane
similarly equipped as one you can rent

#1 and #4 go pretty much exacerbate each other, wouldn't you say?

Years ago, when I was building time, the club I belonged to had only two of
about 25 planes that even mildly IFR equipped.

Right now, I'm looking to buy since most of it's use will be for business
(about 75% or more).

You might add a (6) Ability to take overnight trips.

If you need to be gone 2-3 days, it's not unrealistic to expect to be
charged 9 hours time.

Fortunately we'll be able to afford a "newer" airplane (1987-1992). Anything
to look out for going THAT way?

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...


You might add a (6) Ability to take overnight trips.

I would only add that if your overnight trips require IFR equipment not
available in a rental airplane.

As much as it is frustrating to pay 9 hours minimum rental for a 2-3 day
trip, almost certainly this would be cheaper than buying an airplane.
Suppose your rental airplane costs $80/hour and you have to pay for 4 hours
you do not use -- $320 is nothing compared with surprise maintenance bills
you could get owning an airplane. Suppose you make 10 such trips in a year
for $3,200 in rental "overcharges" -- you will pay far more in maintenance,
hangar/tiedown, and insurance for an airplane you own.

Fortunately we'll be able to afford a "newer" airplane (1987-1992).
Anything
to look out for going THAT way?

It all depends what your flying mission is -- the best advice though was
given earlier in this thread by Mike Rappaport and that is to buy an
airplane which you can buy without thinking about the cost per hour to fly.
It is quite common for pilots to own airplanes and then not fly them as much
as they would like because they are concerned about the incremental costs of
fuel or maintenance to fly the airplane; that means they bought more
airplane than they can afford to fly OR maintain. They would be much better
off either renting or buying a less expensive airplane. And by the way,
this phenomenon applies to everything from a C152 to a cabin-class twin;
there is definitely a tendency of pilots to buy the most expensive airplane
they can stretch their budget to afford, whereas a much better plan is to
buy an airplane which is a step down to something where cost is not a major
concern in the family budget.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

This is something to consider. It's very tempting to try and get a
fast airplane. But I think you're right, and also: how fast can you
get within our price range and still have a solid aircraft with few
squawks?

Mid-1960's vintage Mooneys can be an excellent value for a 130-knot
airplane.

That would be an awfully slow Mooney. My 1967 'C' model (the slowest
model of the mid 1960s Mooneys) does 140-145 kt. The 'E' models are 5-7
kts faster.

KR

"Ken Reed" wrote in message
...

That would be an awfully slow Mooney. My 1967 'C' model (the slowest
model of the mid 1960s Mooneys) does 140-145 kt. The 'E' models are 5-7
kts faster.

I am talking "real" cruise numbers at realistic power settings below 10,000
feet. I used to own a 1967 Mooney M20C and if I flight planned for 130
knots it would work out just about right.

How fast is my current Cessna P210? Well, the book says it can fly 198
knots at 23,000 feet. That is true (+/- winds aloft and time to climb) but
the "real" flight planning speed is 160 knots.

By comparison, I would use 100 knots as a "real" speed for a C172.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

In article ,
KayInPA wrote:
This is something to consider. It's very tempting to try and get a
fast airplane.

Do the math on a few flights before you swoon for "fast". Sure, there's
a big difference between my Comanche and a C-152, but the 10-15kts I have
on a C-182 only save 10-15 minutes on a 3 hour flight.

And no matter what, you'll always want it to be faster right? A friend
of mine just bought a turbo Arrow, and is already complaining it isn't
fast enough.

A Turbo * isn't that fast. The book numbers look good, but you have to
fly high to take advantage. If you're "in PA" (instead of, say, CO)
most of the time the Turbo isn't going to matter at all.

Take an Arrow III. The non turbo models list 137kt cruise. The turbos
claim 172kts. So what you know is that at 7000-8000' (the highest
altitude that a non-turbo engine can make 75% power) BOTH Arrows cruise
at about 137kts and IF you climb the Turbo Arrow into the mid-teens it
will go faster.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

"Ben Jackson" wrote in message
news:1bZbc.179169$1p.2133112@attbi_s54...

Do the math on a few flights before you swoon for "fast". Sure, there's
a big difference between my Comanche and a C-152, but the 10-15kts I have
on a C-182 only save 10-15 minutes on a 3 hour flight.

Another consideration is that if someone plans to upgrade to other airplanes
in the future, it is very helpful to buy and build time in a retractable
airplane. An older Mooney costs about the same as a C182, but Mooney time
is more valuable from an insurer's perspective for a pilot who may step up
to other airplanes in the future.

A Turbo * isn't that fast. The book numbers look good, but you have to
fly high to take advantage. If you're "in PA" (instead of, say, CO)

The main advantage of a Turbo is not speed; it is sustained rate of climb to
altitude, which allows you to (1) operate easier at high density altitude
airports; and (2) climb higher to take advantage of tailwinds and/or get on
top of weather. Number (2) is usually not practical unless the airplane
also has known-icing and spherics equipment, which is unlikely for a first
airplane.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

Ben Jackson wrote:

If you're "in PA" (instead of, say, CO)
most of the time the Turbo isn't going to matter at all.

Depends on where you're going. It will be real handy getting over the top of the many
class-B airports in this area.

George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

In article ,
G.R. Patterson III wrote:
Ben Jackson wrote:
If you're "in PA" (instead of, say, CO)
most of the time the Turbo isn't going to matter at all.

Depends on where you're going. It will be real handy getting over the
top of the many
class-B airports in this area.

What is the cruise-climb setting for a turbo Arrow? Can you run them
at 100% clear up to 10000' MSL?

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/