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Experience with Lithium Iron Phosphate Glider batteries?



 
 
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  #31  
Old June 3rd 16, 10:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Smith
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Default Experience with Lithium Iron Phosphate Glider batteries?

On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 7:05:57 PM UTC-7, Brian wrote:
Would like to go to a K2 style battery, but have a 10 watt solar panel on the glider. I have yet to get a good answer on how to connect the solar panel to the battery. The BMS would probably prevent overcharging, but haven't got anything that says this is acceptable or what kind or charge controller would work with significantly reducing the charging capability.

Any Ideas?

Brian



Brian,

A 10w solar panel isn't much information. What are the Voltage and Amps?
You probably don't even need a charge controller if your attempting to fly with your Solar Panel hooked up to the battery. Your draw from equipment will be greater than the panels ability to charge it.

Find out what the charging voltage of the battery is and make sure you have something inline to keep the voltage going to the battery at that or less.

10w won't keep up with demand but should help extend the life while flying.

I'm not an electrical expert so take everything above with a grain of salt.

I did start a Lawn Care company using all electric equipment and solar panels on the trailer to keep them topped up.

John
  #32  
Old June 4th 16, 02:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Brian[_1_]
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Posts: 399
Default Experience with Lithium Iron Phosphate Glider batteries?

It typically runs about 500ma, about 12.8 volts depending on battery (lead acid ) status.

In flight it definitely not and issue, demand is about 750ma.
However on the ground between flights is the concern where there is no demand. That is the big advantage of the solar panel, as it can top off the battery for the next flight, I rarely have to remove the battery.

I only run the panel on the ground when flying almost daily, otherwise the airplane is in a trailer.
I don't run any controller with the lead acid batteries as it takes a couple days of not flying to get the voltage up over about 14 volts.

Brian
  #33  
Old June 4th 16, 03:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Vaughn Simon[_2_]
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Default Experience with Lithium Iron Phosphate Glider batteries?

On 5/19/2016 12:48 PM, Brian wrote:
Thanks Richard, I have looked at these before but a 10amp controller seems
a bit large for my 600ma panel. A 1amp controller would seem more

appropriate.
This one may work just fine, but I can't find any data on power loss or
efficiency of the controller. If it draws 200ma, that is a 30% loss for my small solar panel.


Your 200 MA guess might be very high! The 12-amp controller for my
little home solar system (Xantrex C-12) draws only 7 MA when charging
and 3 MA at night. That is data that should be included in any solar
controller specification sheet.

Actually, if your controller drew 200 MA 24/7, then your solar system
could be a net loss with that panel, because on a daily basis you are
lucky to get more than a few hours of equivalent full-sun power from any
solar panel. Also note that a solar panel only delivers its rated
output under a very specific set of conditions. If all of those
conditions don't simultaneously exist (which is almost always) then you
get less. Probably much less!


Still, charging lead acid batteries without a controller (as you state
later in the thread) is a chancy proposition. I've seen lots of
perfectly good lead acid batteries ruined by overcharging.
  #34  
Old June 4th 16, 07:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
noel.wade
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Default Experience with Lithium Iron Phosphate Glider batteries?

This thread is why people think soaring is all just cranky old farts.

For those of you that don't like tracking or electronics in the cockpit or the ground: What does it matter if someone else carries that gear? If they aren't actively flying reckless in your airspace, their preferences don't affect you AT ALL. Being bitchy about it is just as productive as whining about bandwagon sports fans.

The man had a question and was looking for info or help. How does being a dick about it help ANYONE? If you don't have something to add to the conversation, quit complaining on the Internet and go fly, or work on your glider, or do something productive.

No one cares about your negative opinion, and posting it for the world to see serves absolutely no purpose, other than to make you look like an asshole, tearing someone down for no reason (when they're trying to carry more safety gear, no less - Who criticizes safety)!?

The world doesn't need more assholes, so just don't do it.

--Noel

  #35  
Old June 4th 16, 07:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
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Default Experience with Lithium Iron Phosphate Glider batteries?

On Tuesday, May 17, 2016 at 9:58:47 AM UTC-7, SF wrote:
During the winter of 2009 I was bored, and aggravated with the sealed lead acid batteries that I was using in my sailplane. They didn't hold the voltage above 12v for very long, they needed replacement every few years, and I had one die 5 miles away from the airport at the end of a 300K badge flight. My argument that I had 2,000 FT over final glide at that point didn't sway the FAI from rejecting that flight for my badge attempt.

My search at the time led me to the K2 (Lithium Iron Phosphate chemistry)batteries that were the subject of my spring of 2010 battery article in Soaring.

Reaction to the article was mixed, and a partial retraction was printed the following month after an FAA DER (Designated Engineering Reviewer)with experience in certifying Lithium Ion batteries for some type of usage in commercial airliners, objected to the use of Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries in sailplanes because they hadn't been certified for that use by the FAA.

It's now 2016, and I see a lot of K2 batteries in other sailplanes. Soaring supply companies in the U.S. seem to be providing K2 batteries or a similar battery from a different manufacturer on a regular basis. The K2 battery I purchased in 2009, and it's twin purchased a year later, are still providing power to my sailplane without incident. There seems to be no degradation in performance, and other than switching to Anderson Power Pole connectors, I have not made any changes to my battery set up.

Has anyone out there had an issue with the usage of Lithium Iron Phosphate chemistry batteries in sailplanes?

Just curious because, a lot of dire consequences were predicted after my article came out.

SF



Here is a link to a comparison I ran three years ago for new K2 9.8Ah LiFePO4 batteries versus Powersonic 10.5Ah SLA batteries (these are the ones that are slightly taller). I used a programmable battery tester that permitted me to simulate normal base load plus occasional radio transmissions. My caseload in around an amp IIRC.

You can see the K2 batteries have a flatter and longer discharge profile. I repeated the test after three years of use for the K2 batteries. I didn't notice any significant degradation in capacity. Note that the flat profile means both that normal "capacity remaining" indications on your soaring instruments will not be accurate (at all - even if you have an option for LiFePO4 the flat voltage profile makes it challenging to estimate). Also, if you set a voltage threshold for a low battery warning it normally indicates that you have perhaps 10-15 minutes left because of the steep falloff, so you need either to be more vigilant or slave two batteries together (I use diodes to separate the batteries - just in case). For most people who don't have panels that draw an amp or more, don't talk incessantly on the radio and/or don't to 8-hour flights, capacity ought not be a problem.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...U9Mem5QcTBMQnM

9B
  #36  
Old June 4th 16, 08:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Vaughn Simon[_2_]
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Default Experience with Lithium Iron Phosphate Glider batteries?

On 6/4/2016 2:26 PM, noel.wade wrote:
The world doesn't need more assholes, so just don't do it


Ummm, were you responding to something I wrote?

Vaughn
  #37  
Old June 5th 16, 04:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Brian[_1_]
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Default Experience with Lithium Iron Phosphate Glider batteries?

That is simply my point about the controller Richard recommended, I just don't know what the efficiency of it is.
7ma loss would be excellent.

The controller is inexpensive enough I may order one and measure the efficiency.

Flying everyday, my panel doesn't usually fully recharge the battery in between flights, If I don't fly for a day to two I will disconnect the panel as I agree it would be easy to overcharge the Lead Acid batteries. That is one of my concerns about going to a LIPO4 battery, with the flat charge/discharge curve it may be harder to tell when it is getting close to fully charged, compared to Lead Acid battery.

Brian
  #38  
Old June 5th 16, 02:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default Experience with Lithium Iron Phosphate Glider batteries?

The LiFePO4 battery that I used had a built-in battery management system
(BMS) which balanced the cells and it came with a "smart" charger
designed specifically for that battery (according to there
specifications). Though, according to the spec sheet, I could leave it
plugged in continuously, I set it on a lamp timer and charged it a
couple of hours per day when parked in the hangar. On safari, I removed
the batteries and charged them in the motel.

To use a solar panel I'd get a charge controller designed especially for
lithium batteries.


On 6/4/2016 9:48 PM, Brian wrote:
That is simply my point about the controller Richard recommended, I just don't know what the efficiency of it is.
7ma loss would be excellent.

The controller is inexpensive enough I may order one and measure the efficiency.

Flying everyday, my panel doesn't usually fully recharge the battery in between flights, If I don't fly for a day to two I will disconnect the panel as I agree it would be easy to overcharge the Lead Acid batteries. That is one of my concerns about going to a LIPO4 battery, with the flat charge/discharge curve it may be harder to tell when it is getting close to fully charged, compared to Lead Acid battery.

Brian


--
Dan, 5J

  #39  
Old December 2nd 16, 03:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 17
Default Experience with Lithium Iron Phosphate Glider batteries?

On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 4:58:47 AM UTC+12, SF wrote:
During the winter of 2009 I was bored, and aggravated with the sealed lead acid batteries that I was using in my sailplane. They didn't hold the voltage above 12v for very long, they needed replacement every few years, and I had one die 5 miles away from the airport at the end of a 300K badge flight. My argument that I had 2,000 FT over final glide at that point didn't sway the FAI from rejecting that flight for my badge attempt.

My search at the time led me to the K2 (Lithium Iron Phosphate chemistry)batteries that were the subject of my spring of 2010 battery article in Soaring.

Reaction to the article was mixed, and a partial retraction was printed the following month after an FAA DER (Designated Engineering Reviewer)with experience in certifying Lithium Ion batteries for some type of usage in commercial airliners, objected to the use of Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries in sailplanes because they hadn't been certified for that use by the FAA.

It's now 2016, and I see a lot of K2 batteries in other sailplanes. Soaring supply companies in the U.S. seem to be providing K2 batteries or a similar battery from a different manufacturer on a regular basis. The K2 battery I purchased in 2009, and it's twin purchased a year later, are still providing power to my sailplane without incident. There seems to be no degradation in performance, and other than switching to Anderson Power Pole connectors, I have not made any changes to my battery set up.

Has anyone out there had an issue with the usage of Lithium Iron Phosphate chemistry batteries in sailplanes?

Just curious because, a lot of dire consequences were predicted after my article came out.

SF


I'm flying with the 19amphr Shorai LFX 19 battery - rated capacity is closer to 6 or 7 amp-hr but very lightweight and the avionics love the 13.8 volt nominal output. Very happy with is on 5-6 hr flights, running LX Nano3, S80, Transponder Mode A & C, radio and 8" mounted Galaxy tablet. Nil problems except of the regulatory type - I understand various manufacturers are specifying LiFePO4 batteries now so I imagine the Aviation Authorities will ahve to deal with this issue at some time. Currently looking to double up this battery for true 10hr plus potential although a 20amp-hr would be ideal from another manufacturer. Look for some kind of UN spec - I think it is UN38.2 specification.

Cheers,
Andy
New Zealand
  #40  
Old December 2nd 16, 06:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
bumper[_4_]
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Default Experience with Lithium Iron Phosphate Glider batteries?

This one: 19.8 AH, same size at the 18 to 19 AH lead acid used in Schleicher ASH26E. You will need to get the charger from them too.

http://www.batterypete.com/batteries...ery-lfp128198/

bumper
 




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