When is too many at a glider meet

He would probably fly a Quintus... Assuming you could still buy one... The Nimbus 4 is no longer considered competitive.

Looks like the streams crossed. Most of these comments should be under a different parent post.

The opening post really illustrates the bipolar nature of RAS. At one end it is a super place to ask serious questions and get quick and accurate responses and counsel from people who know. At the other, it is a place where it is: Make it up (too many pills? smoking stuff?) -- fire (as in post) --- then wait and see.
Bruno's post was spot on.
HL
PS: I heard his aim was really 200 gliders with two tow planes and that he already has an EB-29 in place at Bitterwasser. The mizerable sod won't let me go fly it, which is why I am snitching and telling you all.






On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 10:02:06 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
I recently learned that Bruno has increased the number of gliders for the Nephi, UT event to 80. That's right, eight zero. IMHO, that is too many, even if FLARM is mandated. There will be pilots there from virtually zero cross country time to seasoned racers. They may be lulled into a false sense of complacency until a storm forces the entire field back to the airport at once, creating chaos. I get the bad feeling that this number will keep increasing - or stay the same - until there is a fatality.

On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 10:02:06 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
I recently learned that Bruno has increased the number of gliders for the Nephi, UT event to 80. That's right, eight zero. IMHO, that is too many, even if FLARM is mandated. There will be pilots there from virtually zero cross country time to seasoned racers. They may be lulled into a false sense of complacency until a storm forces the entire field back to the airport at once, creating chaos. I get the bad feeling that this number will keep increasing - or stay the same - until there is a fatality.

2G,
I have to say that you don't have a very clear picture of the Nephi event. This year the airport (Which more than doubled in size a few years ago) had 6 areas that were landable and one could turn off the main runway into an expansive infield at any time. I have been in the pattern with 8 other gliders during last years contest and we all landed on the main runway with no stress. With cooperation and a well coordinated ground crew this is not a big deal. The airport is also surrounded by landable fields and you have to consider that without everyone bunched up in a start cylinder the chance of a mass landing is non existent. There were improvements this year in staging and landing (with penalties of being excluded from the following days flying) and things went very smooth. There is something to consider with Flarm, It does not replace diligence, it just makes scanning easier. I have found it more challenging to fly the contest at Air Sailing (Nevada) where most years there are 15 or so contestants but with Minden and Truckee busy ATC shows between 40-50 transponder equipped gliders in the air at any given time. Some of these people may or may not have the heightened awareness about a contest in the area. This is where the PF really pays for itself.
One of the big problems Bruno and the Utah Soaring Association have is that this format (And the site) have become hugely popular. The roster filled up in two weeks with a waiting list. Where else can you race all out, leisurely boat around the course with your buddies on a party line frequency, or ignore the task and go off on a personal best. Ive done all the above and this year I took the Hard working club president around the course in a club trainer which was something he had never done before. I suggest you hop in the car two years from now and try it out for yourself and then maybe you can make a little more educated posts.
Lastly, and you probably know this by now, don't start a post with "I recently learned" followed by stuff you know nothing about. It makes you look silly.

"I get the bad feeling that this number will keep increasing - or stay the same - UNTIL THERE IS A FATALITY"

Is a prediction of a fatality.

It's pretty clear folks here think your a jerk and do not value whatever wisdom you think you are imparting to humanity, but keep going... digging yourself a deeper hole. The attempted public character assassination of good people who are very successfully and safely promotion soaring, the holier-than-thou I know more than you do (when you clearly have your facts wrong) and let me just tell all you idiots style, and the bull**** of arguing what you wrote when it's right in front of everybody to see.

Go on keep digging yourself a hole, I hope clubs, FBOs and event organizers are paying attention and will in future provide you with the "not welcome here" reception you are working so hard to earn. With an attitude like yours I would not want you anywhere near an event or glider port criticizing and arguing about stuff. And since you drive a motorglider and can go off an launch from somewhere else, that is a great thing for you, and everybody else here.

OK- As an attempt to lighten up this thread:

I want a meet where I have four tow planes (with at least three functional), three wind dummies (hang gliding terminology- we call 'em "sniffers" in Soaring), and I would appreciate it if one of the sniffers was a 1-26 so I could be sure SOMEONE could stay up and I would have a reasonable chance of beating him on miles flown. But his OLC handicap (350 points for putting the wings on and launching) might put me in second or third place JUST BECAUSE!

Come on guys, this has been beaten flat. Let it go. If you think there are too many gliders to be safe, DON'T GO! If you do, DON'T LAUNCH!

As I saw on a cool T-shirt, "Fly More. Bitch Less"

This thread was a lot more fun than that boring crap such as FLARM config files or ADS-B! To elaborate on one poster's comment, it really was like schoolboys calling each other names and older kids or teachers trying to maintain order. Life can be boring. This was entertaining.

I have no idea what number of gliders is safe/unsafe at a given site. I flew a Nationals (Bryan, OH 1976) where we launched 52 from a single hardsurface runway into skies where cloudbase seldom exceeded 4,000 AGL. Relights and finishes were frequent, closely spaced, and involved landings where there were at times four pilots landing in trail and four more in the pattern behind them. The radio-equipped ground controller knew his stuff and the pilots paid CLOSE attention and were responsible. The only incident that I recall was when an early LS-1F had the gear fold up on landing in the grass alongside the runway, which made that alternative even less attractive as the contest went on.

A few years later we had 58 pilots at Adrian, MI in a somewhat larger but still constrained venue. There was a midair at that contest but not because of the congestion. It's going to sound a bit mean but hopefully enough time has passed that I can be excused for saying it involved two guys who surprised no one when they collided (no injuries). There was another glider at that same contest who, fortunately, was brightly colored and so could be easily distinguised and avoided by leaving whatever thermal he entered.

My point is that the number of contestants isn't nearly so important to safety as the way they fly. There are always a few guys who scare everyone else. In an Eastern contest with low bases and weak lift, you're often forced into close proximity with them, hopefully not excessively close. I don't care whether it's 10 gliders or 80, if these guys enter, the risk goes up for everyone.

Experience is important, of course, but attitude counts much more. Often these pilots collect a number of complaints in the safety box and are cautioned by the organizers. Some take it well; others are defensive. More often than not, it seems they don't really see their behavior the way everyone else does and therefore feel no need to change. Yes, there's a parallel with this thread.

With good organization and high-caliber pilots, I'm more concerned about not getting hit by one of the aerial Rambos who's on the short list of see-and-avoid offenders kept by me and nearly everyone else. A nice FLARM refinement would be to use a different algorithm to warn other pilots whenever one of them is nearby.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.