Removing Ethanol from Gas?

The adding of ethanol to gasoline has made the auto-gas STC unusable
for many aircraft owners, nationwide. So far, we're okay (in Iowa,
which is pretty funny) and are able to purchase untainted mogas -- but
the long-range situation seems untenable. We, as a nation, are
inexorably being forced toward the addition of alcohol into ALL
gasoline, so it seems...

On the Cherokee 235 user's group, there is a guy who's been
successfully using ethanol-gas in his aircraft. It's ruined his
fiberglass tip tanks, but he apparently expected this to happen.
Otherwise, the engine is running fine, or so he reports. (Personally,
I think he's crazy, ruining tip tanks that run close to $4K *apiece*,
but that's just me...)

His experience has led to a more interesting (to me) discussion about
the possibility of REMOVING ethanol from gasoline. Several ideas have
been postulated (evaporation; heating; adding water), but none of them
sound particularly safe or easy.

Any chemists out there? Anyone know a way to remove the ethanol from
mogas, so that we may safely use it in our aircraft?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...
The adding of ethanol to gasoline has made the auto-gas STC unusable
for many aircraft owners, nationwide. So far, we're okay (in Iowa,
which is pretty funny) and are able to purchase untainted mogas -- but
the long-range situation seems untenable. We, as a nation, are
inexorably being forced toward the addition of alcohol into ALL
gasoline, so it seems...

On the Cherokee 235 user's group, there is a guy who's been
successfully using ethanol-gas in his aircraft. It's ruined his
fiberglass tip tanks, but he apparently expected this to happen.
Otherwise, the engine is running fine, or so he reports. (Personally,
I think he's crazy, ruining tip tanks that run close to $4K *apiece*,
but that's just me...)

His experience has led to a more interesting (to me) discussion about
the possibility of REMOVING ethanol from gasoline. Several ideas have
been postulated (evaporation; heating; adding water), but none of them
sound particularly safe or easy.

Any chemists out there? Anyone know a way to remove the ethanol from
mogas, so that we may safely use it in our aircraft?
--


This was discussed a while back. While I'm not a chemist I would think that
what came out of the removal process would have a completely unknown octane
rating that would probably be lower than what went in.

I also think "successfully using ethanol-gas" and "ruined his fiberglass tip
tanks" really shouldn't be used in the same paragraph.

Any chemists out there? Anyone know a way to remove the ethanol from
mogas, so that we may safely use it in our aircraft?

This was discussed a while back. While I'm not a chemist I would think that
what came out of the removal process would have a completely unknown octane
rating that would probably be lower than what went in.

Really? Dang, I thought I had kept up here. I remember reading about
TESTING for ethanol, but never removing it... Sorry about that.

I also think "successfully using ethanol-gas" and "ruined his fiberglass tip
tanks" really shouldn't be used in the same paragraph.

Few planes have fiberglass tip tanks -- so I think his experience is a
fairly valid test for many aircraft owners. It seems to be "running"
just fine in his low-compression Lycoming O-540, which is exactly what
you might expect from an old 1940's-era tractor engine.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:
\

Few planes have fiberglass tip tanks -- so I think his experience is a
fairly valid test for many aircraft owners. It seems to be "running"
just fine in his low-compression Lycoming O-540, which is exactly what
you might expect from an old 1940's-era tractor engine.

Ethanol based fuels aren't entirely friendly to aluminum either, which
is one of the reasons the STC forbids it.

ECON 101

AvGas is available at X price
MoGas is available at 3/4X price
Cost to re-refine MoGas Y (why is a good choice of letter)
Cost to repair damaged engine (each) $20,000.

Cost to repair damaged fuel tanks, plumbing, pumps and
seals, unknown.

Cost of FAA violation of regulations, certificate
suspension, a lot
Cost of uninsured aircraft when your insurance is cancelled,
priceless.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net wrote in message
...
|
| "Jay Honeck" wrote in message
|
ups.com...
| The adding of ethanol to gasoline has made the auto-gas
STC unusable
| for many aircraft owners, nationwide. So far, we're
okay (in Iowa,
| which is pretty funny) and are able to purchase
untainted mogas -- but
| the long-range situation seems untenable. We, as a
nation, are
| inexorably being forced toward the addition of alcohol
into ALL
| gasoline, so it seems...
|
| On the Cherokee 235 user's group, there is a guy who's
been
| successfully using ethanol-gas in his aircraft. It's
ruined his
| fiberglass tip tanks, but he apparently expected this to
happen.
| Otherwise, the engine is running fine, or so he reports.
(Personally,
| I think he's crazy, ruining tip tanks that run close to
$4K *apiece*,
| but that's just me...)
|
| His experience has led to a more interesting (to me)
discussion about
| the possibility of REMOVING ethanol from gasoline.
Several ideas have
| been postulated (evaporation; heating; adding water),
but none of them
| sound particularly safe or easy.
|
| Any chemists out there? Anyone know a way to remove the
ethanol from
| mogas, so that we may safely use it in our aircraft?
| --
|
|
| This was discussed a while back. While I'm not a chemist I
would think that
| what came out of the removal process would have a
completely unknown octane
| rating that would probably be lower than what went in.
|
| I also think "successfully using ethanol-gas" and "ruined
his fiberglass tip
| tanks" really shouldn't be used in the same paragraph.
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:q0oCg.14$SZ3.7@dukeread04...
ECON 101

AvGas is available at X price
MoGas is available at 3/4X price
Cost to re-refine MoGas Y (why is a good choice of letter)
Cost to repair damaged engine (each) $20,000.

Cost to repair damaged fuel tanks, plumbing, pumps and
seals, unknown.

Cost of FAA violation of regulations, certificate
suspension, a lot
Cost of uninsured aircraft when your insurance is cancelled,
priceless.

--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

There is also the issue of performance. As I understand it, alcohol
doesn't produce as much horsepower per volume as does avgas. If I use a
mogas that has alcohol in it, I don't have the "Get up and GO" that I used
to have. On that hot day at high altitude, over an obstacle, which takeoff
performance chart do I use?

Al G

It's is like the guy who spent $25,000 on tools to build
furniture for his house, to save 25% on the furniture.
During WWII the Army published flight manuals for fighters
(and bombers) for different grades of fuel, 80/87, 91-96,
100/130 and 115/145 being refined. But some battlefields
did not have supplies of all grades. So you might have a 54
In Hg. MAP with 115/145 and only 40 inches with 100/130.

But what octane do you get from home refined mogas?



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Al" wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:q0oCg.14$SZ3.7@dukeread04...
| ECON 101
|
| AvGas is available at X price
| MoGas is available at 3/4X price
| Cost to re-refine MoGas Y (why is a good choice of
letter)
| Cost to repair damaged engine (each) $20,000.
|
| Cost to repair damaged fuel tanks, plumbing, pumps and
| seals, unknown.
|
| Cost of FAA violation of regulations, certificate
| suspension, a lot
| Cost of uninsured aircraft when your insurance is
cancelled,
| priceless.
|
| --
| James H. Macklin
| ATP,CFI,A&P
|
| There is also the issue of performance. As I understand
it, alcohol
| doesn't produce as much horsepower per volume as does
avgas. If I use a
| mogas that has alcohol in it, I don't have the "Get up and
GO" that I used
| to have. On that hot day at high altitude, over an
obstacle, which takeoff
| performance chart do I use?
|
| Al G
|
|

Jim Macklin wrote:
It's is like the guy who spent $25,000 on tools to build
furniture for his house, to save 25% on the furniture.
During WWII the Army published flight manuals for fighters
(and bombers) for different grades of fuel, 80/87, 91-96,
100/130 and 115/145 being refined. But some battlefields
did not have supplies of all grades. So you might have a 54
In Hg. MAP with 115/145 and only 40 inches with 100/130.

But what octane do you get from home refined mogas?


Not all grades could be used in all engines. 80/87 was not under any
circumstances allowed in many of the bigger engines. And use of
115/145, as was done after WWII (the Navy even ran its jets on the
stuff up through the middle of the Korean War, limiting range and
coating the tailpipes with a lethal (to ground handlers) gray gunk!)
was tough on the Lycomings and Continentals and the gas engines in ramp
equipment.

In article ,
"Al" wrote:

There is also the issue of performance. As I understand it, alcohol
doesn't produce as much horsepower per volume as does avgas. If I use a
mogas that has alcohol in it, I don't have the "Get up and GO" that I used
to have. On that hot day at high altitude, over an obstacle, which takeoff
performance chart do I use?

Today's Wall Street Journal has an chart of pickup trucks and cars and
gas milage with gasoline and E85.
Gas E85 Gas E85 Annual E85 Costs+
City City Hwy HWy Cost /Savings-
Chevy Silverado 1500 AWD 15 11 19 14 $2813 -$10
Chevy Impala 21 16 31 23 $1877 +$40
Chevy Tahoe 1500 AWD 14 11 18 14 $2813 +$223
Ford Crown Victoria 17 12 25 18 $2250 +$353
Ford F150 FFV AWD 14 10 18 13 $3002 +$311

based on 45% highway/55% city, 15,000 mpy

On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 18:00:55 GMT, john smith wrote:

Chevy Silverado 1500 AWD 15 11 19 14 $2813 -$10

That's the one that got me. Why does the Silverado do better on E85
than on gasoline? (Since the final figure is "cost", a minus figure is
a savings.)


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email: usenet AT danford DOT net

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