PC flight simulators

Regards...

They are not really simulators. They are just computer games.
Arthur Kramer

The PC software you can get now, is better than many real simulators, in terms
of what it can do.

Sure, a pc sim/game is not the same as a multi million dollar system, nor is it
meant to, but you can certainly have a lot more fun, while still learning a lot
about aviation, aircraft, systems, navigation, etc.


Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Gord Beaman" )
Date: 11/16/03 5:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Bjørnar Bolsøy" am
Date: 11/16/03 3:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


I was wondering if anyone in this NG play simulators?
If so, which one? What's the best out there, currently.


Regards...

They are not really simulators. They are just computer games.
Arthur Kramer


Pretty inconsiderate Art...just because you don't play with them
why denigerate someone elses fun?

They do indeed simulate flight, so why do you make that stupid
statement?
--

-Gord.


I flew real simulators. And I have flown the crap they make for computers.And
anything that you can do on a computer isn't even close. If you want to fly
your computer for fun ok,bur remember it is just a toy. but don't confuse it
with real flying or flying a real simulator. I guess you have never flown Air
Force simulators. If you had you wouldn't be talking such patent nonsense. Now
be a good guy and just go away.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
I flew real simulators. And I have flown the crap they make for
computers.And
anything that you can do on a computer isn't even close. If you want to
fly
your computer for fun ok,bur remember it is just a toy. but don't confuse
it
with real flying or flying a real simulator. I guess you have never flown
Air
Force simulators. If you had you wouldn't be talking such patent nonsense.
Now
be a good guy and just go away.


I think it depends on what you are trying to simulate. If you are
studying instrument procedures, then a good PC sim may make a great
procedure trainer. If you want to learn how to fly, then every PC sim that
I have seen so far is worse than useless. Without motion, without a wide
view, without being able to look out the side window and back to judge your
downwind-to-base turn, without true feedback on your controls, without true
"butt feel" of accelerative forces, without a whole bunch of other stuff;
you are wasting your time and perhaps "learning" something dangerously
wrong.

If you just want to have fun with your PC, go for it!

Vaughn (a flight instructor)

Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Vaughn"
Date: 11/16/03 6:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
I flew real simulators. And I have flown the crap they make for
computers.And
anything that you can do on a computer isn't even close. If you want to
fly
your computer for fun ok,bur remember it is just a toy. but don't confuse
it
with real flying or flying a real simulator. I guess you have never flown
Air
Force simulators. If you had you wouldn't be talking such patent nonsense.
Now
be a good guy and just go away.


I think it depends on what you are trying to simulate. If you are
studying instrument procedures, then a good PC sim may make a great
procedure trainer. If you want to learn how to fly, then every PC sim that
I have seen so far is worse than useless. Without motion, without a wide
view, without being able to look out the side window and back to judge your
downwind-to-base turn, without true feedback on your controls, without true
"butt feel" of accelerative forces, without a whole bunch of other stuff;
you are wasting your time and perhaps "learning" something dangerously
wrong.

If you just want to have fun with your PC, go for it!

Vaughn (a flight instructor)



Good sense all the way. We must never lose a firm grip on reality. And those
who urge others to take flight simulators seriously to learn how to fly, are
themselves playing a very dangerous game. We have to protect the innocent
against the unprincipled and the unknowing. You stated it quite well..




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote:



I flew real simulators. And I have flown the crap they make for computers.And
anything that you can do on a computer isn't even close. If you want to fly
your computer for fun ok,bur remember it is just a toy. but don't confuse it
with real flying or flying a real simulator. I guess you have never flown Air
Force simulators. If you had you wouldn't be talking such patent nonsense. Now
be a good guy and just go away.

Arthur Kramer

Whaaaatever you say Arthur...you da MAN after all...

--

-Gord.

On 17 Nov 2003 02:29:49 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Gord Beaman" )
Date: 11/16/03 5:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote:

They are not really simulators. They are just computer games.
Arthur Kramer


Pretty inconsiderate Art...just because you don't play with them
why denigerate someone elses fun?

I flew real simulators. And I have flown the crap they make for computers.And
anything that you can do on a computer isn't even close. If you want to fly
your computer for fun ok,bur remember it is just a toy. but don't confuse it
with real flying or flying a real simulator. I guess you have never flown Air
Force simulators. If you had you wouldn't be talking such patent nonsense. Now
be a good guy and just go away.

Arthur Kramer

Well, I've got to disagree, Art. I've not had the opportunity to fly
the latest operational simulators, but will be the first to
acknowledge the incredible state of the simulation art. They make it
almost practical to conduct total training on the ground without ever
getting airborne. Certainly the heavy jet simulation capability is a
$$$-saver for the airline industry.

But (there's always a "but" somewhere in the background), several
years ago while working at Northrop on ATF (the F-23 program), we were
grappling with the best way to train fighter pilots for that elusive
capability called "SA"--situational awareness. It's the sort of "big
picture" that the best tactical aviators can carry in their head which
allows them to know instinctively where their support is, where the
bad guy's support is, which way is "bug out", how much longer they can
stay engaged, and what to do ten, fifteen and thirty seconds into the
future.

We had a massive mainframe computer running three domes and capable of
being reprogrammed to flight models of virtually anything the
designers could propose. We did trade-off evals of RCS
(radar-cross-section) changes against flight agility. We did full
instrumentation mock-ups to test symbology and ergonomics, but we
weren't satisfied with SA training.

What did work, surprisingly well, was a system of linked "desk-top"
stations that let us increase the number of players to 12 and then to
24 plus computer generated entities. A 25 inch color monitor,
configurable for instrument, HUD and sensor display; a stick grip ala
F-16, and a throttle. No motion, no video, no detailed cockpit mockup.

Surprisingly, a cadre of highly experienced tactical aviators--FWS,
Top Gun, test pilots (Edwards & Pax River)--all quickly became
immersed in the "video games". We learned a lot about teaching higher
level tactical analysis, force integration and weapons employment
without the clutter and overhead of multi-million dollar massively
mobile flight simulators.

If you want to learn to fly the jet, full motion or video simulators
are great. If you want to learn how to integrate the force and fight
the weapons in many-v-many scenarios there is a place for PC based,
network simulations.

IMNSHO.

Subject: PC flight simulators
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 11/17/03 7:35 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On 17 Nov 2003 02:29:49 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Gord Beaman" )
Date: 11/16/03 5:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote:

They are not really simulators. They are just computer games.
Arthur Kramer


Pretty inconsiderate Art...just because you don't play with them
why denigerate someone elses fun?

I flew real simulators. And I have flown the crap they make for
computers.And
anything that you can do on a computer isn't even close. If you want to fly
your computer for fun ok,bur remember it is just a toy. but don't confuse
it
with real flying or flying a real simulator. I guess you have never flown
Air
Force simulators. If you had you wouldn't be talking such patent nonsense.
Now
be a good guy and just go away.

Arthur Kramer

Well, I've got to disagree, Art. I've not had the opportunity to fly
the latest operational simulators, but will be the first to
acknowledge the incredible state of the simulation art. They make it
almost practical to conduct total training on the ground without ever
getting airborne. Certainly the heavy jet simulation capability is a
$$$-saver for the airline industry.

But (there's always a "but" somewhere in the background), several
years ago while working at Northrop on ATF (the F-23 program), we were
grappling with the best way to train fighter pilots for that elusive
capability called "SA"--situational awareness. It's the sort of "big
picture" that the best tactical aviators can carry in their head which
allows them to know instinctively where their support is, where the
bad guy's support is, which way is "bug out", how much longer they can
stay engaged, and what to do ten, fifteen and thirty seconds into the
future.

We had a massive mainframe computer running three domes and capable of
being reprogrammed to flight models of virtually anything the
designers could propose. We did trade-off evals of RCS
(radar-cross-section) changes against flight agility. We did full
instrumentation mock-ups to test symbology and ergonomics, but we
weren't satisfied with SA training.

What did work, surprisingly well, was a system of linked "desk-top"
stations that let us increase the number of players to 12 and then to
24 plus computer generated entities. A 25 inch color monitor,
configurable for instrument, HUD and sensor display; a stick grip ala
F-16, and a throttle. No motion, no video, no detailed cockpit mockup.

Surprisingly, a cadre of highly experienced tactical aviators--FWS,
Top Gun, test pilots (Edwards & Pax River)--all quickly became
immersed in the "video games". We learned a lot about teaching higher
level tactical analysis, force integration and weapons employment
without the clutter and overhead of multi-million dollar massively
mobile flight simulators.

If you want to learn to fly the jet, full motion or video simulators
are great. If you want to learn how to integrate the force and fight
the weapons in many-v-many scenarios there is a place for PC based,
network simulations.

IMNSHO.


I understand. But you are hardly talking about Flight Simulator on a home
computer are you? Sounds like what youy are decribing is way out if the reach
of anyone with a home setup..You are also talking about a highly specialised
dedicated setup to solve very specific puposes. Not the sort of stuff readily
available at Best Buy is it?



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

I flew real simulators. And I have flown the crap they make for
computers.And
anything that you can do on a computer isn't even close. If you want to
fly
your computer for fun ok,bur remember it is just a toy. but don't confuse
it
with real flying or flying a real simulator. I guess you have never flown
Air
Force simulators. If you had you wouldn't be talking such patent nonsense.
Now
be a good guy and just go away.

My God, I really cannot believe how much of a git you are. Get back on your
Lithium and stay away from the keyboard until your therapist clears you to
use it again.

Van.

Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Voltigeur"
Date: 11/17/03 12:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: UW9ub.8931$vi5.4042@okepread04



I flew real simulators. And I have flown the crap they make for
computers.And
anything that you can do on a computer isn't even close. If you want to
fly
your computer for fun ok,bur remember it is just a toy. but don't confuse
it
with real flying or flying a real simulator. I guess you have never flown
Air
Force simulators. If you had you wouldn't be talking such patent nonsense.
Now
be a good guy and just go away.

My God, I really cannot believe how much of a git you are. Get back on your
Lithium and stay away from the keyboard until your therapist clears you to
use it again.

Van.



PLONK
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Gord Beaman" )
Date: 11/16/03 5:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Bjørnar Bolsøy" am
Date: 11/16/03 3:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


I was wondering if anyone in this NG play simulators?
If so, which one? What's the best out there, currently.


Regards...

They are not really simulators. They are just computer games.
Arthur Kramer


Pretty inconsiderate Art...just because you don't play with them
why denigerate someone elses fun?

They do indeed simulate flight, so why do you make that stupid
statement?
--

-Gord.


I flew real simulators. And I have flown the crap they make for
computers.And
anything that you can do on a computer isn't even close. If you want to
fly
your computer for fun ok,bur remember it is just a toy. but don't confuse
it
with real flying or flying a real simulator. I guess you have never flown
Air
Force simulators. If you had you wouldn't be talking such patent nonsense.
Now
be a good guy and just go away.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Well Art, I fly military simulators on just about a daily basis, the Link
P3C OFT and the Thales AP3C AFS and use on a regular basis PC simulators,
apart from the fact that they can replicate aircraft systems with over 400
faults and have motion, I for the life of me, am having trouble
understanding what the major difference is between a home simulator and a
military simulator in terms of simulating the flight characteristics of an
aircraft.
I notice Art, that when I asked you if you had seen any of the current PC
flight simulators, you didn't comment, so I'm asking you again Art, have you
seen any of the current PC sims in use?

Scet