WGC Club Class Day 2 Scoring

On Thursday, January 10, 2013 6:29:20 AM UTC-6, Evan Ludeman wrote:
More FAI rules silliness: http://tinyurl.com/aasl8mg



T8

a Rule that creates an incentive for that kind of behavior is pretty silly I think, but I don't see any igc file in the club class mass landout on Day 2 that backs up the story. Perhaps it was a story of what they would've done, or had done at some time in the past.

On Thursday, January 10, 2013 8:12:12 AM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2013 6:29:20 AM UTC-6, Evan Ludeman wrote:

More FAI rules silliness: http://tinyurl.com/aasl8mg







T8



a Rule that creates an incentive for that kind of behavior is pretty silly I think, but I don't see any igc file in the club class mass landout on Day 2 that backs up the story. Perhaps it was a story of what they would've done, or had done at some time in the past.

I can't find it, either. With the finish height as low as it is, it's a pretty thin edge, even as edge cases go. Hmph. Never trust a yankee to come up with a good story that's true.

T8

On Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:22:04 PM UTC-5, Evan Ludeman wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2013 8:12:12 AM UTC-5, Tony wrote:

On Thursday, January 10, 2013 6:29:20 AM UTC-6, Evan Ludeman wrote:



More FAI rules silliness: http://tinyurl.com/aasl8mg










T8







a Rule that creates an incentive for that kind of behavior is pretty silly I think, but I don't see any igc file in the club class mass landout on Day 2 that backs up the story. Perhaps it was a story of what they would've done, or had done at some time in the past.



I can't find it, either. With the finish height as low as it is, it's a pretty thin edge, even as edge cases go. Hmph. Never trust a yankee to come up with a good story that's true.



T8

I'm very surprised how IGC rules are negatively presented to pilots which didn't have opportunity to fly them .
Claiming that IGC rules are responsible for gaggles and are more dangerous is not correct.

The best of the best are flying in the Worlds.
Pilots skill level is almost the same , performance of the gliders is the same, the only difference is small difference in achieved task speed or distance. The best way to gain is to outsmart opponent and to do that is to start 20 seconds later and finish at the same time or to gain just fraction of altitude or gain extra distance. Because in US contests pilots level is over the place top pilots have comfort to shake off followers and don't need to worry about 20 seconds. In addition because of different skill level US gaggles are not able to grow to the size which we see during Worlds. For some there is shock to see 150 gliders like in Szeged and blame IGC rules for gaggling. Weak and marginal condition will always attract gaggles doesn't matter what kind of rules.
We had gaggles during 2012 US 15M Nationals Mifflin, in addition we had start roulette where we were in sinking thermal before starting 1000 feet lower then possible, under US rules not IGC. For some pilots seeing more then 20 gliders in the thermal there is shock, but in Europe or during Worlds 50 gliders or more is normal as their contests attract 100 or more pilots.
Start line was presented as unsafe in comparison to start cylinder.
US start cylinder is one of the most dangerous places, because before start most pilots are trying to find strong thermal inside cylinder and start trough the top . Worse, we have gaggle flying just under deck with high speed in turn or open air brakes just to stay below start altitude for 2 minutes checking our instruments for altitude and time instead of watching other gliders. This is the most dangerous gaggle in the world and it is under US rules not IGC. US rules are putting more restrictions on the pilots then IGC rules, forcing US pilots to check instruments more often instead looking around especially before start and on the final glide.

Jerzy XG

On Jan 13, 11:32*am, Jerzy wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:22:04 PM UTC-5, Evan Ludeman wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2013 8:12:12 AM UTC-5, Tony wrote:

On Thursday, January 10, 2013 6:29:20 AM UTC-6, Evan Ludeman wrote:

More FAI rules silliness:http://tinyurl.com/aasl8mg

T8

a Rule that creates an incentive for that kind of behavior is pretty silly I think, but I don't see any igc file in the club class mass landout on Day 2 that backs up the story. Perhaps it was a story of what they would've done, or had done at some time in the past.

I can't find it, either. *With the finish height as low as it is, it's a pretty thin edge, even as edge cases go. *Hmph. *Never trust a yankee to come up with a good story that's true.

T8

I'm very surprised how IGC rules are *negatively presented to pilots which didn't have opportunity to fly them .
Claiming that IGC rules are responsible for gaggles and are more dangerous is not correct.

The best of the best are flying in the Worlds.
*Pilots skill *level is almost the same , performance of the gliders is the same, the only difference is small difference in achieved task speed or distance. The best way to gain is to outsmart opponent and to do that is to start 20 seconds later and finish at the same time or to gain just fraction of altitude or gain extra distance. Because in US contests pilots level is over the place top pilots have comfort to shake off followers and don't need to worry about 20 seconds. In addition *because of different skill level US gaggles are not able to grow to the size which we see during Worlds. For some there is shock to see *150 gliders like in Szeged and blame IGC rules for gaggling. Weak and marginal condition will always attract gaggles doesn't matter what kind of rules.
*We had gaggles during 2012 US 15M Nationals Mifflin, in addition we had *start roulette where we were in sinking thermal before starting 1000 feet lower then possible, under US rules not IGC. For some pilots seeing more then 20 gliders in the thermal there is shock, but in Europe or during Worlds 50 gliders or more is normal as their contests attract 100 or more pilots.
Start line was presented as unsafe in comparison to start cylinder.
US start cylinder is one of the most dangerous places, because before start most pilots are trying to find strong thermal inside cylinder and start trough the top . Worse, we have gaggle flying just under deck with high speed in turn or open air brakes just to stay below start altitude for 2 minutes checking our instruments for altitude and time instead of watching other gliders. This is the most dangerous gaggle in the world and it is *under US rules not IGC. US rules are putting more restrictions on the pilots then IGC rules, forcing US pilots to check instruments more often instead looking around especially before start and on the final glide.

Jerzy XG

Many of Jerzy's points are right but not all. Yes, WGC contests are
bigger. Yes, there are many more really good pilots there. And both
considerations change strategy a lot.

But there are definable places in the IGC rules which give clear
additional incentives to gaggling.

The biggest is the speed/distance and devaluation formulas. Under IGC
rules, if you are the only finisher and the gaggle lands a few miles
short, you get trivial extra points. If you're the only landout and
the gaggle finishes, you get hammered. John Good did an extensive
analysis of this for the US team. Page 6 here has a detailed example

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john...nd_classes.pdf

US rules and devaluation formulas are not perfect by a long shot, but
they do not create quite so strong incentives to sit for an hour and
go land out with the gaggle. The lone wolf who starts first and
finishes when the gaggle plays this game gets a much bigger reward.
Yes we still have gaggles when we call assigned tasks in the blue. But
this is a matter of degree, and the direction is undeniable.

The US start cylinder, with 2 minute rule, ability to start through
the top, and the start height placed well below the top of the lift,
only requires a pilot to monitor altitude for 2 minutes, in abundant
lift. This is a lot better than spending an hour sitting at the very
top of weak thermals or thermal wave with a WGC unlimited altitude
start, gaggles going off inside the clouds, or VNE dives.

It's really not that hard. If the start is 5000', go find a decent
thermal, descend to 4900', sit on the outskirts of the thermal for 1.5
minutes, then rejoin. Climb briefly through the top and head out on
course. Or, better, descend to 4000', scout around for a great core
and blast through the top at 6 knots.

John Cochrane

On Wednesday, January 9, 2013 5:02:29 PM UTC-5, Fox Sierra wrote:
BB,



Your keen insights as a professor of risk and volatility are needed here! How is it possible that so many gliders land within a few kilometers of the finish with a standard deviation of achieved distances of only a few kilometers!?!?!? Assuming there was not a wall of rain blocking the landing zone, wouldn't a few gliders be expected to have the extra 100 meters of altitude required??

FS

The day was blue with high winds. Waiting is not just for the gaggle but also for thermals to get stronger. Later in the day in Chaves other factors weigh in, like the sea breeze that comes from the Atlantic. So in the end the day just died and pilots landed out. This has happened most of the time last week.

The organizers are frustrated by this very unusual weather pattern, supposedly provoked by the El Niño currents in the Pacific. Hopefully conditions will change this week for some real racing, not just survival.

Some of the tasks may have been set too long based on optimistic forecasts that didn't bear out.

Despite everything the top pilots are at the top... They're just damn good!

Despite everything the top pilots are at the top... *They're just damn good!

Yes, but part of what makes them "top" is mastering the tactical games
induced by IGC rules. That's true for every contest BTW; you have to
understand US rules to do well at US contests.

John Cochrane

"Yes, but part of what makes them "top" is mastering the tactical games
induced by IGC rules."

Yes and is the very reason we have to have real Club Class rules and experience here, IF we want to properly prepare pilots for International Competition.

Mike

On Monday, January 14, 2013 8:46:59 AM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:


Despite everything the top pilots are at the top... *They're just damn good!



Yes, but part of what makes them "top" is mastering the tactical games

induced by IGC rules. That's true for every contest BTW; you have to

understand US rules to do well at US contests.



John Cochrane

Excellent post Jerzy.

Reading some of the Worlds blog posts (and definitely many RAS posts) its as if a propaganda campaign demonizing IGC rules is underway in the US. This is in apparent response to the group of US club class owners and contest pilots asking for an SSA SANCTIONED US club class for years. What was offered after years of begging is a massively morphed barely recognizable "in name only "US club class."

In my opinion (At the US nationals) the successful sports class should remain unchanged, the club class should closely resemble IGC Club Class and pilots of club level gliders SHOULD HAVE THE OPTION to fly Sports or Club.

Club Nationals IS INTENDED to qualify a US pilot for the FAI CLUB CLASS WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS after all.

Everyone has a choice, nobody is left behind.

Simple! Clean and very little risk of dissatisfaction...

55 pilots have signed the WE WANT FAI / IGC RULES SSA SANCTIONED US CLUB CLASS PETITION. Major names, etc, etc.

Sean
F2

On Monday, January 14, 2013 1:04:43 PM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:
Excellent post Jerzy.



Reading some of the Worlds blog posts (and definitely many RAS posts) its as if a propaganda campaign demonizing IGC rules is underway in the US. This is in apparent response to the group of US club class owners and contest pilots asking for an SSA SANCTIONED US club class for years. What was offered after years of begging is a massively morphed barely recognizable "in name only "US club class."



In my opinion (At the US nationals) the successful sports class should remain unchanged, the club class should closely resemble IGC Club Class and pilots of club level gliders SHOULD HAVE THE OPTION to fly Sports or Club.



Club Nationals IS INTENDED to qualify a US pilot for the FAI CLUB CLASS WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS after all.



Everyone has a choice, nobody is left behind.



Simple! Clean and very little risk of dissatisfaction...



55 pilots have signed the WE WANT FAI / IGC RULES SSA SANCTIONED US CLUB CLASS PETITION. Major names, etc, etc.



Sean

F2

Regarding propaganda campaigns: not having a horse in this race, I see valid reasoning on both sides and very little flaming although the protagonists appear to be quite opinionated. If someone would put a gun to my head and force me to choose I'd go Sports Class. Any set of rules that allows for 3km finals in near ground effect, jumping roads, risking to hit photographers standing on their cars, having to make 180 turns near the ground, low energy landings in general and the like are too much excitement for me. I'd have no qualms about IGC Rule fans holding their own contests but participation will be low IMHO.

On Monday, January 14, 2013 3:35:44 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, January 14, 2013 1:04:43 PM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:

Excellent post Jerzy.







Reading some of the Worlds blog posts (and definitely many RAS posts) its as if a propaganda campaign demonizing IGC rules is underway in the US. This is in apparent response to the group of US club class owners and contest pilots asking for an SSA SANCTIONED US club class for years. What was offered after years of begging is a massively morphed barely recognizable "in name only "US club class."







In my opinion (At the US nationals) the successful sports class should remain unchanged, the club class should closely resemble IGC Club Class and pilots of club level gliders SHOULD HAVE THE OPTION to fly Sports or Club.







Club Nationals IS INTENDED to qualify a US pilot for the FAI CLUB CLASS WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS after all.







Everyone has a choice, nobody is left behind.







Simple! Clean and very little risk of dissatisfaction...







55 pilots have signed the WE WANT FAI / IGC RULES SSA SANCTIONED US CLUB CLASS PETITION. Major names, etc, etc.







Sean



F2



Regarding propaganda campaigns: not having a horse in this race, I see valid reasoning on both sides and very little flaming although the protagonists appear to be quite opinionated. If someone would put a gun to my head and force me to choose I'd go Sports Class. Any set of rules that allows for 3km finals in near ground effect, jumping roads, risking to hit photographers standing on their cars, having to make 180 turns near the ground, low energy landings in general and the like are too much excitement for me. I'd have no qualms about IGC Rule fans holding their own contests but participation will be low IMHO.

I see the propagandist have succeeded again! FAI rules allow for finish altitudes of 5000 feet AGL or more if contest management sees fit. We can all agree this is exagerated but the point is that contest management is responsible for a safe contest. Just like in the US.

Sean Franke