Washington DC airspace closing for good?

Terrorists aren't dumb but only searching those who are not of a terrorist
profile is very dumb. From what I hear that is what our security ends up
doing more often than not because people are concerned about getting sued.To
think a bunch of Catholics or what have you will covert to Islam for their
ideas is just not going to happen. Not saying their aren't some idiots out
there, just you may be over estimating the power of Islam. Close the border
kick the radicals out and the radical message starts to disappear. It's
about religion not really an idea, unless you want to consider it an idea of
religion.
And if you believe in our government were to do it's job and protect our
borders and root out the bad guys and send them to where ever and there
would not be any need in taking any other Americans rights or no fly zones
or searches. Get rid of them, make sure they can not get here and the need
for spending craploads of money on non-existant security drastically
reduces. And then you could really say there is no need for the ADIZ.
IMHO of course and we shall leave her there so if anyone else thinks
it's getting off topic.

Patrick

"Jose" wrote in message
. ..
Searching Grandma is NOT going to find a terrorist

But if we let it be known that we won't search Grandma, then somehow
Grandma will be the bomb. Terrorists aren't dumb.

But of course if we do not stop them at the border...

Even if we do, the ideas will cross the border and infiltrate our society.

We're getting off topic here though.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no
universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Happy Dog wrote:
"George Patterson"

Certainly. NPR didn't state "several security people stated", they played
recordings of the hearings and identified the speakers. In other words, I
heard some of the people responsible for getting the ADIZ set up state
that the purpose was to reduce the number of radar targets and make sure
that there were no unidentified primary radar echoes.

Other ways of accomplishing this have been suggested.

That's as may be, but the fact is that *they* say that *they* did it for *this*
reason.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

W P Dixon wrote:

But New Yorkers are lining up letting the cops rummage
through there belongings, for what otherwise would be an illegal search.

No more illegal than searching airline passengers stuff. As the mayor says, you
don't want to be searched, that's fine. Don't ride the subway.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:tVSJe.1664$lT.630@trndny05...
Happy Dog wrote:
"George Patterson"

Certainly. NPR didn't state "several security people stated", they played
recordings of the hearings and identified the speakers. In other words, I
heard some of the people responsible for getting the ADIZ set up state
that the purpose was to reduce the number of radar targets and make sure
that there were no unidentified primary radar echoes.

Other ways of accomplishing this have been suggested.

That's as may be, but the fact is that *they* say that *they* did it for
*this* reason.

They may have said it but it still doesn't make sense. That makes it less
than credible. Were these "security people" aviation experts?

moo

W P Dixon wrote:

George do you not have a transponder? That would most definitely be a
problem.

Somewhere something got lost in here. Yes, I had a transponder with mode-C. It's
pretty necessary in this neck of the woods. And you wouldn't go under or over
class-B airspace without one in an aircraft like those I owned.

I thought we were discussing the sort of super class-B you described in which
the protected airspace goes down to the ground and up to the flight levels
throughout the area as an alternative to the ADIZ. I used to make runs from New
Jersey to Knoxville and once made a short trip to Asheville, flying under the
1500' floor of the old class-B. I have also on occasion flown directly over
Dulles at 10,500' or 11,500', back when the cap was 10,000'. I've even flown
directly over downtown DC, back when it was a "TCA" and the roof was something
like 7,000'.

To make those same Asheville and Tennessee runs today, I would have to file a
flight plan, get a squawk code, and get permission to enter the ADIZ. Turn it
into a super class-B, and I still need to get a squawk code and get permission
to enter, and, if it's anything like the old class-B was, I probably won't get
permission to enter if I haven't filed a flight plan.

What has the ADIZ cost me? About half an hour on a run to Tennessee, plus it
forces me to cut past the first ridge of the Appalachians. Weather in that
pocket could make the run impossible for a VFR pilot like myself. In that case,
a run around the ADIZ to the east would add about an hour to the trip. The super
class-B would do the same.

The ADIZ also cost me the ability to attend the picnics that the Natalies used
to host, though. Just *maybe* a class-B setup would allow for that.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

Happy Dog wrote:

They may have said it but it still doesn't make sense.

Of course it does. With a limited number of squawk codes, that limits the number
of aircraft that can be allowed in the area. With a requirement for flight
plans, that means that the authorities know exactly what aircraft are there. You
can keep out anything that you think is suspicious, and the military radars in
the area will alert you to anything that's not supposed to be there. In one
stroke, you eliminate all of the unknown radar targets, especially the ones down
around 1,100' squawking VFR. And if one does come along anyway, you can assume
it's hostile. From a security viewpoint, it's nearly perfect and the military
and Secret Service have been asking for something like it for at least a decade
(that info comes from the same hearings).

Were these "security people" aviation experts?

No. You are somehow under the impression that the ADIZ was set up for aviation
or by aviation experts? It was set up to protect the area *from* aviation. From
their viewpoint, we're lucky that anyone is allowed to fly there at all. These
are the same people that shut Reagan airport down completely. If they had their
way, it would still be closed -- opening it required tremendous pressure from
Congress.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

Yes you are so correct George..what should be illegal searches are the norm.
And the sheeple do not complain, that being the case can we not all realize
the difficulty of telling the public at large the ADIZ is not needed? I just
think it would be impossible without getting some "critter" folk onboard a
Class Bplus to give the false sense of security and like I said it appears
that the Gov has done something to protect the voters. Not the small number
of pilot voters but the public at large voters.
The people DO have the power , but it is the larger public not a small
group. If you and I stop taking commercial flights because we feel the
searches are against our Constitutional freedom nobody cares..if 95% of the
flying public did the same it would have impact.
It will take the larger group to make a difference in the ADIZ , not
just a few of us. Thus the need for a petition signed not just by us
aviation nuts but the public ...as many as we could possibly get. If the
powers that be saw the public at large thought it was a waste of time and
money and thought more about their freedom to fly with friends if they so
chose ,..then that is how the red tape would see it as well.
It's a hard row to hoe when the public has very little concern over
their own rights as a whole. A letter signed by 100,000 pilots would get as
much attention as me going in the meeting and singing "Zippidy Doo Dah"..I'd
get a weird look and they would move right along and do what they plan on
doing anyway. What a shame too! I have such a lovely singing voice!!!!

Patrick

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:0YSJe.1665$lT.1300@trndny05...
No more illegal than searching airline passengers stuff. As the mayor
says, you don't want to be searched, that's fine. Don't ride the subway.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

"George Patterson" wrote in
Were these "security people" aviation experts?

No. You are somehow under the impression that the ADIZ was set up for
aviation or by aviation experts? It was set up to protect the area *from*
aviation. From their viewpoint, we're lucky that anyone is allowed to fly
there at all. These are the same people that shut Reagan airport down
completely. If they had their way, it would still be closed -- opening it
required tremendous pressure from Congress.

I'm under the impression that it was set up for no legitimate security or
safety reasons. And, so far, I haven't seen any evidence that it was. And,
that's what I've been asking for.

le m

What has the ADIZ cost me? About half an hour on a run to Tennessee, plus it
forces me to cut past the first ridge of the Appalachians. Weather in that
pocket could make the run impossible for a VFR pilot like myself. In that case,
a run around the ADIZ to the east would add about an hour to the trip. The super
class-B would do the same.

Why don't you go through the ADIZ? Filing is a five minute process and
getting permission ussually can be done without any delay if you call
10-15 mins before you would enter.

I rarely fly without an ADIZ flight plan, since I'm ussually leaving or
entering it (based in Leesburg).

I just don't see how its costing you 1/2 hour, unless your refering to
the fact that you can't fly through the smaller restricted zone.

-BC

On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:36:59 -0400, "John T" wrote in
::

GAO study results relevant to this thread:

"HOMELAND SECURITY
Agency Resources Address
Violations of Restricted
Airspace, but Management
Improvements Are Needed"

http://www.gao.gov/htext/d05928t.html
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05928t.pdf


Many thanks for these links. I searched for these documents without
success.