Denver Terminal Area Chart Question - BVR vor/dme

May I suggest you consider picking up a Jeppesen Sanderson PJ-1 Plotter.
It's truly a handy tool!

In this instance, you would just lay the plotter against your pencil line,
then slide it up or down the line until one of the lat-long lines aligns
with one of the lines on the rotating degree wheel. You could then read your
course directly off the wheel.Then you could rotate the wheel to match a
magnetic deviation scale and get your course.

And my explanation is far worse than the one that came with the plotter, but
it's really a useful unit!





"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
ink.net...
The presence or absence of the compass rose on a VOR has no meaning.
It is purely at the discretion of the cartographer to omit it when he
feels it
would make the chart too cluttered.

All right, this makes sense to me. But as someone who is still a student,
I
have to ask a question here. Let's say that I'm planning to fly along a
specific VOR radial, and that this radial is not part of an airway. What
I
normally do is draw a line on the chart, and then read the radial on this
compass rose. But without the compass rose, how am I supposed to
determine
the radial that I need to follow? Most of the VORs in this area have not
been adjusted to keep pace with magnetic variation, and are therefore a
few
degrees off from both both the true course and the magnetic course.

I know that I can look up each VORs magnetic variation setting on
airnav.com, but what if that wasn't available?

"Bill Denton" wrote in message ...
May I suggest you consider picking up a Jeppesen Sanderson PJ-1 Plotter.
It's truly a handy tool!


Did you bother to read the post? The VOR declinations aren't necessarily the
magnetic variation for the area.

Yes, I did read the post.

Actually, I said: "magnetic deviation", which is probably a meaningless term
but which was the only one that came to mind.

Jeppesen uses the term "variation", then relates it to "magnetic" in the
instructions.

Neither of which is important to the usability of the plotter.

The plotter has a rotating protractor which allows for direct reading of a
course, and it has the additional variation scale which can be used to input
course corrections and still allow direct reading of the course. You would
normally use this variation scale for magnetic variation.

But you don't have to! You could also use it to give a direct read simply if
you decided: "Hey, it's Tuesday. I think I'll fly five degrees west of the
actual course!"

Now, as I have mentioned on several occasions, I am still in the wannabe
category, anxiously awaiting the arrival of the Light Sport Pilot
certificate.

Sometimes I know or come across some information that might be useful to
some in this group. I then share that information. And if I am incorrect, I
am appreciative when someone corrects me and provides the correct
information.

You made the statement: "The VOR declinations aren't necessarily the
magnetic variation for the area." This was something I have not yet learned
about, so I didn't know it. And after your post, I still don't know it. But
that lack of knowledge doesn't change the validity or worth of the
information I posted.

So, if you feel compelled to post: "Nah, nah, nah, your wrong and I'm
right", knock yourself out. But please don't be surprised if you find your
posts treated with absolutely no respect...





"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. ..

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
May I suggest you consider picking up a Jeppesen Sanderson PJ-1 Plotter.
It's truly a handy tool!


Did you bother to read the post? The VOR declinations aren't necessarily
the
magnetic variation for the area.

"Bill Denton" wrote in message ...
You made the statement: "The VOR declinations aren't necessarily the
magnetic variation for the area." This was something I have not yet learned
about, so I didn't know it. And after your post, I still don't know it. But
that lack of knowledge doesn't change the validity or worth of the
information I posted.

Actually it does. If you understood what I was saying you'd understand that
your suggestion yields an inaccurate solution. The original poster specifically
said that the the VOR's in the area had not been realigned to magnetic north

So, if you feel compelled to post: "Nah, nah, nah, your wrong and I'm
right", knock yourself out. But please don't be surprised if you find your
posts treated with absolutely no respect...

That wasn't my intent. I just couldn't understand why you would make a statement
that was clearly wrong given the posts you were responding to.

Variation differences are VOR specific. Each VOR is adjusted individually or
ignored for years individually. Using a nearby VOR is not a solution.

There are only three possibilities. 1) Look up the variation for that
particular VOR in your always handy AF/D to determine a radial to fly; 2)
compute a magnetic heading from the VOR for the course you want to fly,
start flying it, and determine which radial you are on; or 3) use an airway
that is charted from that VOR to determine its variance.
--
-------------------------------
Travis
"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:hcRTb.209885$I06.2322774@attbi_s01...
There might be a better way, but I'd just approximate it by looking at the
VOR's nearby. You won't be more than a few degrees off.

Michael

"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
ink.net...
The presence or absence of the compass rose on a VOR has no meaning.
It is purely at the discretion of the cartographer to omit it when he
feels it
would make the chart too cluttered.

All right, this makes sense to me. But as someone who is still a
student,
I
have to ask a question here. Let's say that I'm planning to fly along a
specific VOR radial, and that this radial is not part of an airway.
What
I
normally do is draw a line on the chart, and then read the radial on
this
compass rose. But without the compass rose, how am I supposed to
determine
the radial that I need to follow? Most of the VORs in this area have
not
been adjusted to keep pace with magnetic variation, and are therefore a
few
degrees off from both both the true course and the magnetic course.

I know that I can look up each VORs magnetic variation setting on
airnav.com, but what if that wasn't available?

Crap... all this discussion about trying to find out what radial to fly..

1) draw the dang line on the chart.. through your VOR if you must "fly the
radial"
2) plant your trusty plotter on the line and measure the TC heading to fly..
3) look at the magnetic variation lines and apply the correction
accordingly..
4) go fly...

enough already
BT

"Robert Easton" wrote in message
...
Does anybody know why on the Denver Terminal Area Chart, the Byers (BVR
113.5) vor/dme facility is charted without the compass ring that are on
most
vortacs? It's the only one I've seen charted like this. Byers is located
33NM on the 090 radial of DVV (the Denver International Vortac).

Thanks, Robert

Crap... all this discussion about trying to find out what radial to fly..

1) draw the dang line on the chart.. through your VOR if you must "fly the
radial"
2) plant your trusty plotter on the line and measure the TC heading to
fly..
3) look at the magnetic variation lines and apply the correction
accordingly..
4) go fly...

But, as I said in the original post, the VORs in this area have not been
adjusted for years now, and the declination used in them is not the same as
the magnetic variation lines on any current charts. Thus the radial setting
is not the same as the magnetic course, and is not the same as the true
course. They are somewhere in the middle.

Yeah you're right. Having said that, I'd look at a nearby VOR and estimate.
I'm not saying the FAA or a CFI would approve, but the reality is that
estimating would be plenty close enough.

Michael


"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...
Variation differences are VOR specific. Each VOR is adjusted individually
or
ignored for years individually. Using a nearby VOR is not a solution.

There are only three possibilities. 1) Look up the variation for that
particular VOR in your always handy AF/D to determine a radial to fly; 2)
compute a magnetic heading from the VOR for the course you want to fly,
start flying it, and determine which radial you are on; or 3) use an
airway
that is charted from that VOR to determine its variance.
--
-------------------------------
Travis
"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:hcRTb.209885$I06.2322774@attbi_s01...
There might be a better way, but I'd just approximate it by looking at
the
VOR's nearby. You won't be more than a few degrees off.

Michael

"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
ink.net...
The presence or absence of the compass rose on a VOR has no meaning.
It is purely at the discretion of the cartographer to omit it when
he
feels it
would make the chart too cluttered.

All right, this makes sense to me. But as someone who is still a
student,
I
have to ask a question here. Let's say that I'm planning to fly along
a
specific VOR radial, and that this radial is not part of an airway.
What
I
normally do is draw a line on the chart, and then read the radial on
this
compass rose. But without the compass rose, how am I supposed to
determine
the radial that I need to follow? Most of the VORs in this area have
not
been adjusted to keep pace with magnetic variation, and are therefore
a
few
degrees off from both both the true course and the magnetic course.

I know that I can look up each VORs magnetic variation setting on
airnav.com, but what if that wasn't available?

Geoffrey Barnes wrote:

But, as I said in the original post, the VORs in this area have not been
adjusted for years now, and the declination used in them is not the same as
the magnetic variation lines on any current charts.

And as I said in my post, it won't be off enough to matter.

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.

and for this chap.. do you honestly think that 2 or 3 degrees is going to
make a difference?? what ever happened to pilotage
BT

"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
ink.net...
Crap... all this discussion about trying to find out what radial to
fly..

1) draw the dang line on the chart.. through your VOR if you must "fly
the
radial"
2) plant your trusty plotter on the line and measure the TC heading to
fly..
3) look at the magnetic variation lines and apply the correction
accordingly..
4) go fly...

But, as I said in the original post, the VORs in this area have not been
adjusted for years now, and the declination used in them is not the same
as
the magnetic variation lines on any current charts. Thus the radial
setting
is not the same as the magnetic course, and is not the same as the true
course. They are somewhere in the middle.