American pilots charged in Amazon jetliner crash

Guy Elden Jr wrote:
This story just gets more and more bizarre... based on the evidence
I've seen reported so far, it certainly sounds to me like the Brazilian
air traffic control system itself is solely to blame for this accident.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americ....ap/index.html

--
Guy

Anyone that's been following the story is fairly clued in to what's
going on. I can't imagine they'll return, and I think our gov't will
have a big problem on their hands if they try to force these guys back
down there - I highly doubt they will based on what I've seen.

I don't know how things work in Brazil.
It could be similar to Europe, where a full investigation of the accident
cannot be completed without naming purported "perpetrators" and subjecting them
to a criminal investigation. The fact that the two pilots are named as
defendants does not preclude the naming of the air traffic controlers as well.

One possible weakness of such a method is that it puts a very strong emphasis
on the importance of human imperfections, while leaving little place for the
argument that a system design weakness may be equally to blame, if not more so.

I agree the US pilots would be crazy to EVER go back there - This would even
seem to be implicit in the fact that they were allowed to leave!!

GF

wrote:
Guy Elden Jr wrote:

Anyone that's been following the story is fairly clued in to what's
going on. I can't imagine they'll return, and I think our gov't will
have a big problem on their hands if they try to force these guys back
down there - I highly doubt they will based on what I've seen.

Americans always get ****ed off when the U.S. deports U.S. citizens to
stand trail in foreign countries. Why do you think this will be
different?

-Robert

In article .com,
says... (again)


Its not unheard of for U.S. Marshalls to arrest a U.S. citizen in the
U.S. to stand for a warrent in a foreign country....
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/09/14/dog.bounty/index.html
U.S. treaties allow for foreign countries to issue arrest warrents for
U.S. citizens in the U.S..



Posting it repeatedly does not really enhance the pertinence of this analogy.

In article .com,
says...



Greg Farris wrote:
In article .com,
says... (again)


Its not unheard of for U.S. Marshalls to arrest a U.S. citizen in the
U.S. to stand for a warrent in a foreign country....
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/09/14/dog.bounty/index.html
U.S. treaties allow for foreign countries to issue arrest warrents for
U.S. citizens in the U.S..



Posting it repeatedly does not really enhance the pertinence of this
analogy.

No, but it does show how screwed up the deja server is today.



Alright - sorry!

I think the US pilots were given a one-way exit visa, and are not expected
to return.

GF

In article .com,
says...


Americans always get ****ed off when the U.S. deports U.S. citizens to
stand trail in foreign countries. Why do you think this will be
different?


With all due respect, you're being a bit hard-headed about it.
You keep responding with generalities about extradition and US marshals
and all that jazz, when what people here are trying to say to you is that
it is, in fact, the specifics of this case that make it appear likely they
will not be going back there. Who knows, we may be wrong - but that's what
it looks like.

I believe had the Brazilian authorities felt they really had evidence of
criminal wrongdoing or negligence, they would not have released the
Americans. The fact that they did so, would seem to indicate that their
implication in the criminal investigation is more of a formality -
"because that's the way the system works". Others could be named as well -
the air traffic controllers on duty, even the equipment manufacturers.
Many of the issues that would be addressed through lawsuits in civil
courts in the US are often addressed in the criminal process in other
countries. Any or all of those named could be found not responsible, or
assigned different levels of responsibility, only the most direct of which
would lead to criminal sanctions.

I believe it's most likely the pilots will be tried in absentia, and we'll
see how much, if any responsibilty is assigned to their actions. By giving
them back their passports, the Brazilians are aware they face a comlicated
extradition process of they want to see them back there, and that's a
diplomatic issue thy would probably prefer to avoid. We'll see how it goes
- but in my opinion they would not have put themselves in that position
if they had a strong presumption of direct responsibility on behalf of the
American pilots.

GF

Greg Farris wrote:

I think the US pilots were given a one-way exit visa, and are not expected
to return.

I also thought it funny that they held them this long with no charges
and then charged them and returned their passports. Is this the
Brazilian way to say "we had to charge you, but really don't want to try
you so get outta here?"

Matt

wrote in message oups.com...
:
: Guy Elden Jr wrote:
: This story just gets more and more bizarre... based on the evidence
: I've seen reported so far, it certainly sounds to me like the Brazilian
: air traffic control system itself is solely to blame for this accident.
:
: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americ....ap/index.html
:
: --
: Guy
:
: Anyone that's been following the story is fairly clued in to what's
: going on. I can't imagine they'll return, and I think our gov't will
: have a big problem on their hands if they try to force these guys back
: down there - I highly doubt they will based on what I've seen.
:

So they will always have this hanging over them. They should go down there and fight. If Brazil wants to play in the
world market they need to acknowledge their short comings and get them fixed. The ATC system down there is to blame for
this crash, and ATC is run by their military, so it will be real interesting to see if they ever admit guilt...

Blueskies writes:

So they will always have this hanging over them. They should go
down there and fight.

Which countries have you visited?

If Brazil wants to play in the world market they need to acknowledge
their short comings and get them fixed. The ATC system down there is to blame for
this crash, and ATC is run by their military, so it will be real
interesting to see if they ever admit guilt...

Their ATC system affects only flights in their airspace. The rest of
the world doesn't care. If it's an ATC problem and they don't fix it,
people might become more reluctant to travel by air in Brazil, but
that's it. And even that is unlikely to happen, because most people
don't follow or care about such things, and air travel is the only way
to get to a lot of places in Brazil (and the only way to get to many
more places in any reasonable time).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Blueskies wrote:

....They should go down there and fight. ...

And risk rotting in a Brazillian prison for 12 years away from their
familes should they lose? Not worth it...

--Dan