Good News on Delorme InReach (2 min tracking and altitude vs. Spot w/10 min tracking and no altitude)

Hi Ramy,

Your note below is correct.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
_______________________________________

So in sake of deciding how much switching to InReach will actually cost in
annual fee (ignoring the initial cost of the unit which diminishes overtime
comparing to the total cost of few year of subscription) it seems that for
the same annual fee as the Spot service ($150) I can get the aviation
subscription and set it to the same interval as spot (10 min) which will
provide nearly 20 hours per month of tracking, which should be sufficient
for most pilots. Those who fly less may even switch it to higher tracking
rate. And if I understand correct, anyone viewing my shared page can ping me
anytime for real time position. In addition it will provide altitude (very
useful), much better UI and smarphone integration for two way text
messaging, all for the same annual cost as Spot! Did I understand this
correctly? If so, it is almost a no brainer better deal.

Ramy

Hi Eric,

I have a slight correction to your note below. The DeLorme PN-60w does not
work with the inReach for smartphones. There are 2 different versions of
the inReach - one for smartphones and one for the PN-60w. I only plan to
sell the one for use with smartphones.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
___________________________

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message ...

On 2/22/2013 9:16 AM, Sean F (F2) wrote:
They can also very easily send you a text message and IF you have the
mobile app you can read it (note: having your cell phone on board
during contest flight is currently illegal according to the SSA US
contest rules:-( )

It's not illegal to carry the phone in the glider. Cheez.

Further, not necessary to have a cell phone to read the text message, as
you can also use an iPad, iPod touch, Android device, or DeLorme PN-60w.

I'm thinking of carrying an iPod Touch anyway, loaded with sectionals
and a flight computer program (to back up my primary computer), and
perhaps as a remote viewer/controller for a video camera mounted on/in
the glider.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

Hi Sean,

I have one small correction to your note below. It is my understanding that
when your unit is pinged from your shared tracking page the reply is sent
out at the same interval as the unit is setup for tracking. If you have the
tracking interval set to 10 minutes, the ping will get a reply after up to
10 minutes.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
____________________________

"Sean F (F2)" wrote in message
...

Ramy,

You got it! :-). DeLorme InReach appears to be night and day better when
compared to Spot. I never liked Spot to be honest and suspect that many of
you felt the same. It annoyed me how poor and out of date it's website was.
The mobile app was poor. As you can see from my sample track, DeLormes
website is of very high quality. It runs beautifully on PC, Mac, Android
and IOS. I am able to easily access all functions on any device or browser.
The software is well thought out and complete.

Your followers do have the ability (if tracking is forgotten or off) to ping
you at any time and see your location, speed and altitude within 1 min
typically. They do this simply thru the website tracking page. They can
also very easily send you a text message and IF you have the mobile app you
can read it (note: having your cell phone on board during contest flight is
currently illegal according to the SSA US contest rules :-( )

The costs are negligible for the aviation plans (2 min tracking interval)
AND I still want someone to test if the regular plans provide altitude with
10 min updates. I suspect they do provide altitude as well but have not
confirmed.

Sean

Hi Sean,

To answer a question below - Yes - The standard "consumer" plans with 10
minute (or longer) tracking also report altitude, groundspeed and heading.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
___________________________

"Sean F (F2)" wrote in message
...

Ramy,

You got it! :-). DeLorme InReach appears to be night and day better when
compared to Spot. I never liked Spot to be honest and suspect that many of
you felt the same. It annoyed me how poor and out of date it's website was.
The mobile app was poor. As you can see from my sample track, DeLormes
website is of very high quality. It runs beautifully on PC, Mac, Android
and IOS. I am able to easily access all functions on any device or browser.
The software is well thought out and complete.

Your followers do have the ability (if tracking is forgotten or off) to ping
you at any time and see your location, speed and altitude within 1 min
typically. They do this simply thru the website tracking page. They can
also very easily send you a text message and IF you have the mobile app you
can read it (note: having your cell phone on board during contest flight is
currently illegal according to the SSA US contest rules :-( )

The costs are negligible for the aviation plans (2 min tracking interval)
AND I still want someone to test if the regular plans provide altitude with
10 min updates. I suspect they do provide altitude as well but have not
confirmed.

Sean

On Friday, February 22, 2013 9:16:32 AM UTC-8, Sean F (F2) wrote:
Ramy,



You got it! :-). DeLorme InReach appears to be night and day better when compared to Spot. I never liked Spot to be honest and suspect that many of you felt the same. It annoyed me how poor and out of date it's website was. The mobile app was poor. As you can see from my sample track, DeLormes website is of very high quality. It runs beautifully on PC, Mac, Android and IOS. I am able to easily access all functions on any device or browser. The software is well thought out and complete.


Thanks Sean - I'm sold.

I did some analysis of what plan to get - including the $30 change plans fee. Assuming I read the rate card and overage charges correctly - and assuming 6 months of flying versus 6 months of off-season - the most economical approach is as follows:

At a 2 min tracking interval the break-even number of tracking hours per month above which it is cheaper to bump up to Aviation 4 during the flying season versus just sticking to Aviation 1 all year is 15.1 hours per month. Total subscription bill for the year: $310.50

At a 5 minute tracking break-even is 37.8 hours per month. Less than that and you save money by sticking to Aviation 1. Total subscription bill for the year: $310.50 - again.

If you burn it up with a 1 minute interval the break-even is 7.5 hours per month. Total subscription bill: $310.50.

I picked Aviation 4 because it has an overage rate that is less than any other rate - base or overage. That's a strange discontinuity in the pricing - it appears they really want to encourage Aviation 4 for some reason. I assumed an identical number of flight hours per month so if your flying has some heavy and light months it'll be slightly different. I also didn't account for the possibility that you might dial back the tracking interval on heavy flight months. If you did that it would make staying on the Aviation 1 plan even more attractive.

Unless you fly a lot at a high tracking rate it seems to make the most sense to go with the minimum plan and just pay the overages on the months when you fly more. Just make sure to watch your data usage or you will get a nasty surprise.

9B

On Friday, February 22, 2013 2:17:56 PM UTC-8, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi Ramy,



Your note below is correct.



Best Regards,



Paul Remde

Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

_______________________________________



So in sake of deciding how much switching to InReach will actually cost in

annual fee (ignoring the initial cost of the unit which diminishes overtime

comparing to the total cost of few year of subscription) it seems that for

the same annual fee as the Spot service ($150) I can get the aviation

subscription and set it to the same interval as spot (10 min) which will

provide nearly 20 hours per month of tracking, which should be sufficient

for most pilots. Those who fly less may even switch it to higher tracking

rate. And if I understand correct, anyone viewing my shared page can ping me

anytime for real time position. In addition it will provide altitude (very

useful), much better UI and smarphone integration for two way text

messaging, all for the same annual cost as Spot! Did I understand this

correctly? If so, it is almost a no brainer better deal.



Ramy

Hi Paul,

For me, one of the most important features is to be able to be pinged anytime for my exact location at that moment. This will allow me to keep my tracking interval at 10 minutes yet to be able to be tracked instantaneously. As such, I would like to confirm if this is indeed how it works, or, as you suggested, it may only repeat the last track position, in which case it is no difference than the auto tracking feature. Can someone confirm this please?
Also, if I get pinged for my location often, does it eat into my monthly allowance, and if so, how much every ping may cost?
Would be nice if they had a simple low cost fixed plan like Spot, but I guess it is too much to ask...

Ramy

Hi Ramy,

The ping update is the same as the customer set tracking interval. It does
not just send the last track point. It just doesn't send the ping reply
until the next tracking interval comes up.

If you are signed-up for the aviation byte-based plans - every bit of data
sent comes out of your monthly allotment. Each track point and ping is 13
bytes. The 3 pre-defined "inReach" messages are also 13 bytes. Text
messages can be up to 160 bytes - depending on message length.

DeLorme does offer fixed cost plans. They are shown on my web site. If you
want track updates every 10 minutes or more, then the consumer plans make
sense. They include unlimited track points, but limited text messaging.
The recreation plan makes the most sense out of their consumer plans.
http://www.delorme.com/library/hardw...bscription.pdf

I signed-up for their aviation plan. I have it set to the highest plan for
now and will bump it down (using their web site) to the lowest plan during
the off season.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.




Ramy

Hi Paul,

For me, one of the most important features is to be able to be pinged
anytime for my exact location at that moment. This will allow me to keep my
tracking interval at 10 minutes yet to be able to be tracked
instantaneously. As such, I would like to confirm if this is indeed how it
works, or, as you suggested, it may only repeat the last track position, in
which case it is no difference than the auto tracking feature. Can someone
confirm this please?
Also, if I get pinged for my location often, does it eat into my monthly
allowance, and if so, how much every ping may cost?
Would be nice if they had a simple low cost fixed plan like Spot, but I
guess it is too much to ask...

Ramy

Hi Andy,

I just noticed what you pointed out about the overage costs for Aviation
plan 4.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/delor...scriptions.pdf

I suspect that the overage cost of $1.60/kb is a typo. $2.60/kb would fall
nicely between the Aviation 3 and 5 plans. I'll ask them for clarification.
Their aviation plan brochure has not been released on their web site and is
a bit of a work in process.

Thank you for the inReach order.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
__________________________

Thanks Sean - I'm sold.

I did some analysis of what plan to get - including the $30 change plans
fee. Assuming I read the rate card and overage charges correctly - and
assuming 6 months of flying versus 6 months of off-season - the most
economical approach is as follows:

At a 2 min tracking interval the break-even number of tracking hours per
month above which it is cheaper to bump up to Aviation 4 during the flying
season versus just sticking to Aviation 1 all year is 15.1 hours per month.
Total subscription bill for the year: $310.50

At a 5 minute tracking break-even is 37.8 hours per month. Less than that
and you save money by sticking to Aviation 1. Total subscription bill for
the year: $310.50 - again.

If you burn it up with a 1 minute interval the break-even is 7.5 hours per
month. Total subscription bill: $310.50.

I picked Aviation 4 because it has an overage rate that is less than any
other rate - base or overage. That's a strange discontinuity in the
pricing - it appears they really want to encourage Aviation 4 for some
reason. I assumed an identical number of flight hours per month so if your
flying has some heavy and light months it'll be slightly different. I also
didn't account for the possibility that you might dial back the tracking
interval on heavy flight months. If you did that it would make staying on
the Aviation 1 plan even more attractive.

Unless you fly a lot at a high tracking rate it seems to make the most sense
to go with the minimum plan and just pay the overages on the months when you
fly more. Just make sure to watch your data usage or you will get a nasty
surprise.

9B

On Friday, February 22, 2013 3:53:04 PM UTC-8, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi Andy,



I just noticed what you pointed out about the overage costs for Aviation

plan 4.

http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/delor...scriptions.pdf


A typo would make sense Paul. $2.60 would make getting the bigger plan less attractive because you don't save as much versus the cheap plan should you have one month with a ton of overage.


InReach does seem like a great spectator tool at contests. It occurs to me that you should have enough information that with a little computing you would be able to give a continuous readout of who has the best speed at any given point during the task. You could adjust for different start times with some simple normalizing assumptions to account for pilots being at different points along the course due to differences in start time versus differences in rate of progress, and of course adjusting for altitude. I'd bet you could even give continuously updated estimated scores and standings among the pilots carrying an inReach. It would be most entertaining if all of the pilots in contention had a unit on board of course.

Whether you'd want to text each pilot their standing and score in real time over the course of the flight is another matter. ;-)

9B

On Thursday, February 21, 2013 7:46:52 AM UTC-8, Sean F (F2) wrote:
I have been battling with the Delorme folks a bit and have won a big, big argument with them that I think will benefit some of you.



The frustration I have had with Spot is its poor website interface, sub standard social app integration and general poor usability. The Spot connect device for example, will not start tracking unless you have cell phone data available when you want to begin tracking. If you do not have data available on your cellphone, no tracking! Additionally, their network offers only position at 10 minute intervals and no altitude.



Delorme offers 2 minute intervals with altitude!!! These improvements will make tracking soaring flights far more interesting and enjoyable for spectators, crews, family and friends. It will also make it obvious if the aircraft/pilot has landed or crashed (and potentially shorted response time to send help or begin a search). With spot for example you have no idea if the pilot is trying to make a low save over that point where traces are stacking up over time or if they are indeed on the ground. With that, I was very excited when I heard about the SSA's work to utilize the Delorme product into a new tracking capability. The 2 minute updates and altitude alone (along with better software on mobile and web) made the switch an easy decision.



The only issue, as you might expect, is the higher cost of the Delorme unit and service. The DeLorme InReach unit is $249 (http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/delorme.htm) vs. $150 for the Spot connect or $99 for the older Spot II. 2 aspects of the DeLorme subscription plan where, initially (yesterday), different. With DeLorme, the 2 minute interval for Aviation is considered a "professional" account. This provides upgraded 2 minute update intervals and altitude but comes at a more expensive rate with potential overage charges (bit based). The plans assume a certain number of flying hours per month (6 to 65) and range from $17 - $62 per month. It looks like, for me, the $40 per month (34 hours) would be sufficient for me.



The second aspect was the real problem. As I called DeLorme yesterday to register my unit and buy the subscription plan, I learned of a business practice which I found revolting. The support person told me that the unit required a special firmware update in order to support the 2 minute transmission schedule (the standard Delorme units use the traditional 10 minute intervals and this is how they come out of the box). The kicker was (wait for it.......) that that firmware upgrade was going to cost me an additional $100. I immediately thought of the complaining my Dad makes about the $99 to $200 per year cost of the Spot subscription plan for his glider. This complaining is not unique in the US soaring community. $40 per month ($480 per year) is alot already, but this "insult to injury" $100 firmware upgrade fee was simply out of bounds. There was little chance that most soaring pilots would pay for this additional capability with a $200+ annual additional cost.



Needless to say I took the support people on and made a distinct argument as to how ridiculous charging private pilots a $100 fee to use their more expensive service after buying their more expensive unit. I was transferred higher and higher up the chain as each person ran out of energy trying to justify the charge. I cited their own website, press releases and literature which claims all the aviation benefits (2 min, altitude, etc) but makes no mention of a more costly rate plan or firmware charge. Soon I was speaking with the head of marketing and he agreed to take my complaint (and mild threats to publicize the business practice and false advertising) to their executive strategy meeting this morning. After several emails to various Delorme executives last night and this morning, I received the email below.. This email clearly acknowledges the stupidity of charging private pilots (glider pilots, etc) $100 to upgrade the product and explains that from this moment forward, DeLorme has changed its policy worldwide.



-----

Hello Sean



Thank you for your reply and interest in the DeLorme inReach.



I received permission to waive the $100 dollar upgrade in your case! Also in discussions with upper management we will waive this upgrade for any individual pilot. Thank you for your feedback!



To setup your account, please fill in the attached form and send it in a reply email with the IMEI number of the device and the plan you would like to choose from the Sell Sheet I sent you.



I would also need your Credit Card information listed below. Please contact our Customer Care department (800.511.2459) and any of my reps. can take this information.

Note: Please do not sent credit card information via email as that is an unsecure method of communication.



Name on Card:

Type:

Number:

Expiration Date:

Security Code: (on back of card)

Billing address on card (if different from attached form)



If you have any questions, please reply to this email.



Regards,



Kurt Ringrose

DeLorme Customer Care Manager

Email-

Phone- 207.846.7112

Fax- 207.847.5112

Many answers can be found at our on-line knowledge base within the link below.

http://support.delorme.com

Latitude 43°48.491' N, Longitude 70°09.844' W

----



I will have the my new DeLorme tracker running at Seniors in Florida in a couple weeks and the CC Clinic the week afterwards. Frank Paynter is also using the unit and is working with the SSA to get this higher level of tracking integrated with the SSA website!



Best,



Sean

F2

Nice work, Sean. Thanks. Fred