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#11
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One inch under the floor is okay. The area under class B is often
constricted, so it can help to get flight following. Whether ATC has a right to do it or not, controllers regularly assign altitudes to VFR traffic for whatever reasons of their own. |
#12
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"C J Campbell" wrote in message ... One inch under the floor is okay. The area under class B is often constricted, so it can help to get flight following. Whether ATC has a right to do it or not, controllers regularly assign altitudes to VFR traffic for whatever reasons of their own. Yup, and receiving an altitude assignment from a controller that hasn't the authority to issue it is an indication that you're not working with a sharp troop. |
#13
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OtisWinslow wrote: There can be a lot of VFR traffic cruising around under the B space. It's a good idea to just talk to ATC and get their help. I've only dealt with Orlando and New York. New York would rather not deal with you most of the time. Even when they politely acknowledge your presence, they are usually too busy to advise you about other traffic. One controller stated at a Wings seminar years ago that most of the time he has the radar set to block low-level VFR returns 'cause they clutter the screen too much. As he put it "The area around the Solberg VOR looks like a beehive. You're all gonna crash and I don't wanna see it." George Patterson If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have been looking for it. |
#14
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In article . net,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote: "C J Campbell" wrote in message ... One inch under the floor is okay. The area under class B is often constricted, so it can help to get flight following. Whether ATC has a right to do it or not, controllers regularly assign altitudes to VFR traffic for whatever reasons of their own. Yup, and receiving an altitude assignment from a controller that hasn't the authority to issue it is an indication that you're not working with a sharp troop. This is one of my pet peeves about the folks at NY Tracon. They've got this strange habit of telling VFR flights inbound to HPN to "descend to pattern altitude". It used to only happen to me once in a while, but lately it seems to have become SOP. It's more than just a polite suggestion, too. I've had controllers tell me that I'm not descending fast enough, and that they "need me" to descend. I once said "unable" when a controller tried to do this to me 15 miles out at night and ended up with an invitation to call them when I got on the ground. Said phone call resulted in a verbal reaming out by the supervisor for refusing to follow instructions. A written complaint from me to the tracon resulted in a letter informing me that I must obey all controller's instructions. |
#15
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"Roy Smith" wrote in message ... Yup, and receiving an altitude assignment from a controller that hasn't the authority to issue it is an indication that you're not working with a sharp troop. This is one of my pet peeves about the folks at NY Tracon. They've got this strange habit of telling VFR flights inbound to HPN to "descend to pattern altitude". It used to only happen to me once in a while, but lately it seems to have become SOP. It's more than just a polite suggestion, too. I've had controllers tell me that I'm not descending fast enough, and that they "need me" to descend. Again, a sign that you're not working with a sharp troop. I once said "unable" when a controller tried to do this to me 15 miles out at night and ended up with an invitation to call them when I got on the ground. Said phone call resulted in a verbal reaming out by the supervisor for refusing to follow instructions. Had it been me it would have been the supervisor that would have received the verbal reaming out. A written complaint from me to the tracon resulted in a letter informing me that I must obey all controller's instructions. But not supported by any documentation, of course. |
#16
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Roy Smith ) wrote:
It's more than just a polite suggestion, too. I've had controllers tell me that I'm not descending fast enough, and that they "need me" to descend. I once said "unable" when a controller tried to do this to me 15 miles out at night and ended up with an invitation to call them when I got on the ground. Said phone call resulted in a verbal reaming out by the supervisor for refusing to follow instructions. A written complaint from me to the tracon resulted in a letter informing me that I must obey all controller's instructions. Shoulda had the supervisor tell you what section of the Federal Aviation Regulation supports his assertion that ATC control VFR aircraft outside of B or C airspace. -- Peter |
#17
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I haven't flown around NY. I have dealt with Tampa and Miami .. both of whom
were helpful. "G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message ... OtisWinslow wrote: There can be a lot of VFR traffic cruising around under the B space. It's a good idea to just talk to ATC and get their help. I've only dealt with Orlando and New York. New York would rather not deal with you most of the time. Even when they politely acknowledge your presence, they are usually too busy to advise you about other traffic. One controller stated at a Wings seminar years ago that most of the time he has the radar set to block low-level VFR returns 'cause they clutter the screen too much. As he put it "The area around the Solberg VOR looks like a beehive. You're all gonna crash and I don't wanna see it." George Patterson If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have been looking for it. |
#18
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"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message ...
PaulaJay1 wrote: What is the minimum legal distance (altitude) to fly VFR under a Class B "wedding cake"? Whatever the floor is. CLE has a 1900 ft floor at the north side by Lake Erie and I have flown at 1800 to go around CLE. You could fly it at 1900. Hit a bump and go to 1901, however, you're illegal, but the controller won't know it. The typical mode-C transponder reports altitude in 100' increments and changes readings at about the 50' level; that is, at 1949', your transponder should report 1900' and at 1950' it should report 2000'. Dunno about you, but my encoder isn't that accurate. Still, it won't be precise enough to get me busted at 1' over the floor. Yup, legal distance is the floor. But my method to handle it is to fly 200 feet below the floor if I can do that safely. Since the transponders report in 100 foot intervals, and there may be error in either the transponder or the ATC side of the reporting system, this keeps me out of ATC's concern for busting the Bravo. (I got this from an instructor of mine.) This also allows for errors (mine or others) in flying level, or setting the altimeter too. That being said, I'll scrap the floor with my tail if I have to for safety & ground clearance, or ask for Bravo clearance (but never get it near here). If ATC calls traffic and gives me an altitude or heading to take, I'll take it and debate the issue later if necessary. I'm out of Leesburg VA under the Wash DC ADIZ, so under Bravo space I'm ALWAYS talking to ATC. The rules are a little different here, but I do appreciate the effective result of flight following it gives me. I do wish they'd call out type as well as traffic though. Watching for a C172 is a little different from watching for a business jet or turbo prop. I kept looking for the other "Cessna" going into Leesburg last weekend and not finding him till I figured out that he was much much faster, with a wider approach and pattern than the C172M I was flying. -Malcolm Teas |
#19
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The controller has the authority to arbitrarily decide he does not have
the ability to provide VFR services due to workload constraints. Dave Steven P. McNicoll wrote: "Dave S" wrote in message link.net... It doesn't vary at all. If you're outside of the Class B airspace ATC has no authority to assign altitudes to VFR aircraft. Nor any obligation to continue radar services to said VFR aircraft. Actually, there is. FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control Chapter 2. General Control Section 1. General 2-1-1. ATC SERVICE The primary purpose of the ATC system is to prevent a collision between aircraft operating in the system and to organize and expedite the flow of traffic. In addition to its primary function, the ATC system has the capability to provide (with certain limitations) additional services. The ability to provide additional services is limited by many factors, such as the volume of traffic, frequency congestion, quality of radar, controller workload, higher priority duties, and the pure physical inability to scan and detect those situations that fall in this category. It is recognized that these services cannot be provided in cases in which the provision of services is precluded by the above factors. Consistent with the aforementioned conditions, controllers shall provide additional service procedures to the extent permitted by higher priority duties and other circumstances. The provision of additional services is not optional on the part of the controller, but rather is required when the work situation permits. Provide air traffic control service in accordance with the procedures and minima in this order except when: a. A deviation is necessary to conform with ICAO Documents, National Rules of the Air, or special agreements where the U.S. provides air traffic control service in airspace outside the U.S. and its possessions or: NOTE- Pilots are required to abide by CFRs or other applicable regulations regardless of the application of any procedure or minima in this order. b. Other procedures/minima are prescribed in a letter of agreement, FAA directive, or a military document, or: NOTE- These procedures may include altitude reservations, air refueling, fighter interceptor operations, law enforcement, etc. REFERENCE- FAAO 7110.65, Procedural Letters of Agreement, Para 1-1-8. c. A deviation is necessary to assist an aircraft when an emergency has been declared. REFERENCE- FAAO 7110.65, Safety Alert, Para 2-1-6. FAAO 7110.65, Emergencies, Chapter 10. FAAO 7110.65, Merging Target Procedures, Para 5-1-8. |
#20
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OtisWinslow wrote:
I haven't flown around NY. I have dealt with Tampa and Miami .. both of whom were helpful. I fly around NY, and have found the controllers typically quite helpful to VFR traffic. In fact, I once surprised a VFR-only pilot in our club with how helpful they are. We were departing Caldwell for the NJ shore in an aircraft w/o a GPS (it has since been upgraded, of course {8^). His plan was to fly around the class B to the west. I suggested "through", which surprised him a little. But a quick request to TRACON got us not only entry, but a vector to Colts Neck (which we couldn't receive at our current position/altitude). As I said, they're very helpful. There have been a few exceptions, but these were all (as far as I can recall) recognizably high-workload situations for them. But this raises a question about which I keep forgetting. I was once IFRing into Linden - an uncontrolled airport right next to Newark - in VMC. ATC wanted me to cancel as early as possible of course, and I was perfectly willing to do so. I just wanted to be below the class B first, but - at least where I was - the floor was below ATC's MVA. So I cancelled, but I felt a little odd being in class B having never received explicit clearance into it. Silly of me? - Andrew |
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