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#1
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Airplane prices are ridiculous
Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today
is much higher than they were in the 1970's as compared to the value of a dollar and average wages back then. And really, if you look at the price of complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles there really is no justification for planes to be priced so high. There just isn't that much more technology or material. For me personally after looking at the economy, I'd rather keep that much money in a safe place right now drawing a humble rate of interest than to spend it on a plane worth 35K that costs 120K. --- Mark |
#2
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Airplane prices are ridiculous
Mark wrote:
Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today is much higher than they were in the 1970's as compared to the value of a dollar and average wages back then. And really, if you look at the price of complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles there really is no justification for planes to be priced so high. There just isn't that much more technology or material. For me personally after looking at the economy, I'd rather keep that much money in a safe place right now drawing a humble rate of interest than to spend it on a plane worth 35K that costs 120K. --- Mark When airplanes become mass produced in millions per year by robots, the price won't be much more than cars. Of course, airplanes are never going to be mass produced in millions per year by robots. In term of cost, the best time to buy stuff is when the economy is down and people are dealing. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#3
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Airplane prices are ridiculous
Mark writes:
Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today is much higher than they were in the 1970's as compared to the value of a dollar and average wages back then. And really, if you look at the price of complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles there really is no justification for planes to be priced so high. There just isn't that much more technology or material. A shrinking market, ever-increasing potential liability in a society obsessed by frivolous litigation, and the high cost of certification probably all contribute to the prices of airplanes. These factors are absent or nearly absent for automobiles, which have a huge, expanding market, relatively insignificant liability issues in relation to the market size, and virtually no certification requirements. |
#4
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Airplane prices are ridiculous
On Sep 9, 8:51*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote: Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today is much higher than they were in the 1970's as compared to the value of a dollar and average wages back then. *And really, if you look at the price of complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles there really is no justification for planes to be priced so high. There just isn't that much more technology or material. For me personally after looking at the economy, I'd rather keep that much money in a safe place right now drawing a humble rate of interest than to spend it on a plane worth 35K that costs 120K. --- Mark When airplanes become mass produced in millions per year by robots, the price won't be much more than cars. So why, relatively speaking, were planes so much cheaper back in the 1970's? I don't think it was supply and demand but I could be wrong. Of course, airplanes are never going to be mass produced in millions per year by robots. Maybe not but with globalization of the world economy I wouldn't be suprised to see China step up to the plate and fill this niche. From a stand-point of profitablility I'm sure Cessna, Piper, and Beechcraft among others have found a nice balance of optimum profit by producing just enough inventory to keep the prices where they want them without having to tool up and mass produce. Labor would be their largest overhead and human resource management is always volatile. Back to the Chinese... this short video gives a nice little tutorial on the state of electric airplanes and China's contribution. Just think, no oxygen required. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwyyQ1BckK0 In term of cost, the best time to buy stuff is when the economy is down and people are dealing. No doubt and people are selling everything these days, especially in Florida where houses are 1/2 (or less) their former price. Most anywhere you can find a boat, travel trailor, or motorcycle for bargain prices and people are selling 120K airplanes for 80K. Problem is, after a year or so most of those toys just end up sitting in the garage and the 80K plane is STILL overpriced. -- Mark -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
#5
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Airplane prices are ridiculous
On Sep 10, 2:09*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Mark writes: Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today is much higher than they were in the 1970's as compared to the value of a dollar and average wages back then. *And really, if you look at the price of complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles there really is no justification for planes to be priced so high. There just isn't that much more technology or material. A shrinking market, Why do you think the market is shrinking? I think it's growing. ever-increasing potential liability in a society obsessed by frivolous litigation With insurance I just can't see this being a factor that would drive up the price of planes, and really do you suppose that many pilots find themselves as defendents? and the high cost of certification probably all contribute to the prices of airplanes. How so? Yes certification is expensive but that money goes to the flight school. These factors are absent or nearly absent for automobiles, Wait a second. I would dare say that MANY lawsuits stem from car related incidents and FEW lawsuits are incurred (proportionally speaking) with private pilots in single engine planes. which have a huge, expanding market, relatively insignificant liability issues in relation to the market size, and virtually no certification requirements. --- Mark |
#6
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Airplane prices are ridiculous
Mark wrote:
On Sep 9, 8:51Â*pm, wrote: Mark wrote: Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today is much higher than they were in the 1970's as compared to the value of a dollar and average wages back then. Â*And really, if you look at the price of complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles there really is no justification for planes to be priced so high. There just isn't that much more technology or material. For me personally after looking at the economy, I'd rather keep that much money in a safe place right now drawing a humble rate of interest than to spend it on a plane worth 35K that costs 120K. --- Mark When airplanes become mass produced in millions per year by robots, the price won't be much more than cars. So why, relatively speaking, were planes so much cheaper back in the 1970's? I don't think it was supply and demand but I could be wrong. They weren't. A decent, used, lower end airplane both then and now costs about the same as a high end car. Oh, sure, in absolute dollars they were a lot cheaper then, but so was everything else. Of course, airplanes are never going to be mass produced in millions per year by robots. Maybe not but with globalization of the world economy I wouldn't be suprised to see China step up to the plate and fill this niche. What niche? The equipment to do robotic building costs big bucks that can only be payed for by huge volumes. Even if the price for a new Cessna/Cirrus/Piper were the same as a new car, the percentage of people owning airplanes would not change very much simply because most people are not interested in owning an airplane. The bottom line is there is no huge market for airplanes at any price which means the building of them will never be automatted like cars are. From a stand-point of profitablility I'm sure Cessna, Piper, and Beechcraft among others have found a nice balance of optimum profit by producing just enough inventory to keep the prices where they want them without having to tool up and mass produce. Labor would be their largest overhead and human resource management is always volatile. Utter nonsense. All the airplane makers have been struggling just to survive for a decade or so now. Back to the Chinese... this short video gives a nice little tutorial on the state of electric airplanes and China's contribution. Just think, no oxygen required. Electric airplanes are toys. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwyyQ1BckK0 In term of cost, the best time to buy stuff is when the economy is down and people are dealing. No doubt and people are selling everything these days, especially in Florida where houses are 1/2 (or less) their former price. Most anywhere you can find a boat, travel trailor, or motorcycle for bargain prices and people are selling 120K airplanes for 80K. Problem is, after a year or so most of those toys just end up sitting in the garage and the 80K plane is STILL overpriced. What are you, 15? -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#7
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Airplane prices are ridiculous
Mxsmanic wrote:
Mark writes: Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today is much higher than they were in the 1970's as compared to the value of a dollar and average wages back then. And really, if you look at the price of complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles there really is no justification for planes to be priced so high. There just isn't that much more technology or material. A shrinking market, ever-increasing potential liability in a society obsessed by frivolous litigation, and the high cost of certification probably all contribute to the prices of airplanes. These factors are absent or nearly absent for automobiles, which have a huge, expanding market, relatively insignificant liability issues in relation to the market size, and virtually no certification requirements. Actually the automobile market has all those concerns, which is why you don't see new, low volume cars like the Morgan in the USA. They can't afford to meet all those requirements at their volume level. One Morgan executive once commented that the US crash testing requirements alone whould require most of a years production. It is the huge volume of mass produced cars that spreads those costs over so many units that the compliance cost per unit becomes trivial. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#8
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Airplane prices are ridiculous
Mark wrote:
On Sep 10, 2:09Â*am, Mxsmanic wrote: Mark writes: Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today is much higher than they were in the 1970's as compared to the value of a dollar and average wages back then. Â*And really, if you look at the price of complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles there really is no justification for planes to be priced so high. There just isn't that much more technology or material. A shrinking market, Why do you think the market is shrinking? I think it's growing. Then your thinking is clouded. The sales numbers are out there for anyone to see and the market is shrinking in all sectors from GA to airliners. ever-increasing potential liability in a society obsessed by frivolous litigation With insurance I just can't see this being a factor that would drive up the price of planes, and really do you suppose that many pilots find themselves as defendents? The liability is on the manufacturer and liability insurance costs big money. and the high cost of certification probably all contribute to the prices of airplanes. How so? Yes certification is expensive but that money goes to the flight school. The airplane itself and each piece and part has to be certified. That costs the manufacturer big bucks. The certification testing of a new airplane design can take years. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#9
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Airplane prices are ridiculous
On Sep 10, 12:12*pm, wrote:
So why, relatively speaking, were planes so much cheaper back in the 1970's? *I don't think it was supply and demand but I could be wrong. They weren't. A decent, used, lower end airplane both then and now costs about the same as a high end car. Oh, sure, in absolute dollars they were a lot cheaper then, but so was everything else. My understanding is that the RATIO has not been maintained, as I've already stated and RELATIVELY speaking planes cost more today than in the 1970's. Of course, airplanes are never going to be mass produced in millions per year by robots. Maybe not but with globalization of the world economy I wouldn't be suprised to see China step up to the plate and fill this niche. What niche? The sector of people who don't want to pay more than 50K. The equipment to do robotic building costs big bucks that can only be payed for by huge volumes. Yes I am familiar with this, as I worked for Lockheed during the 70's and 80's. Even if the price for a new Cessna/Cirrus/Piper were the same as a new car, the percentage of people owning airplanes would not change very much simply because most people are not interested in owning an airplane. I'm sure that there are MANY people who would own an airplane today if they could get one for $24,900. The bottom line is there is no huge market for airplanes at any price which means the building of them will never be automatted like cars are. While I wouldn't expect a company to try and crank out planes as if they were toyotas, I think the cheap international labor market could make available a reasonably priced new craft for the geneneral aviation market. * From a stand-point of profitablility I'm sure Cessna, Piper, and Beechcraft among others have found a nice balance of optimum profit by producing just enough inventory to keep the prices where they want them without having to tool up and mass produce. Labor would be their largest overhead and human resource management is always volatile. Utter nonsense. Wrong. Generally speaking your highest on-going overhead is labor. With any successful business, at some time the idea of expansion is entertained, and while your actual sales very well may increase (the reason for examining expansion) very likely your profits may decrease. All the airplane makers have been struggling just to survive for a decade or so now. Agreed, with many going bankrupt but it isn't due to lack of demand. (you know...supply/demand) Back to the Chinese... *this short video gives a nice little tutorial on the state of electric airplanes and China's contribution. Just think, no oxygen required. Electric airplanes are toys. Precisely what was said about the telephone..."Just a toy". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwyyQ1BckK0 In term of cost, the best time to buy stuff is when the economy is down and people are dealing. No doubt and people are selling everything these days, especially in Florida where houses are 1/2 (or less) their former price. Most anywhere you can find a boat, travel trailor, or motorcycle for bargain prices and people are selling 120K airplanes for 80K. Problem is, after a year or so most of those toys just end up sitting in the garage and the 80K plane is STILL overpriced. What are you, 15? No need for insults. I'm 55, became financially independent at age 40, and I didn't do it by throwing away money on impulse spending. Thanks, Mark -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
#10
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Airplane prices are ridiculous
On Sep 10, 12:23*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote: On Sep 10, 2:09*am, Mxsmanic wrote: Mark writes: Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today is much higher than they were in the 1970's as compared to the value of a dollar and average wages back then. *And really, if you look at the price of complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles there really is no justification for planes to be priced so high. There just isn't that much more technology or material. A shrinking market, Why do you think the market is shrinking? *I think it's growing. Then your thinking is clouded. The market has been shrinking for a couple of decades, but I believe there is a resurgence of interest at this time. Unfortunately the economy right now is killing growth. The sales numbers are out there for anyone to see and the market is shrinking in all sectors from GA to airliners. Yes sales are off. Interest is still high. Conclusion: The friggin' planes cost too much. ever-increasing potential liability in a society obsessed by frivolous litigation With insurance I just can't see this being a factor that would drive up the price of planes, and really do you suppose that many pilots find themselves as defendents? The liability is on the manufacturer and liability insurance costs big money. Ok, thanks for the clarification. Insurance companies are robber-barons. Look at the spread sheets. ( A.I.G.) So, basically, GREED is driving up the cost of planes. and the high cost of certification probably all contribute to the prices of airplanes. How so? *Yes certification is expensive but that money goes to the flight school. The airplane itself and each piece and part has to be certified. That costs the manufacturer big bucks. The certification testing of a new airplane design can take years. Reminiscent of the FDA. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
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