tailwheel endorsement

I had an Air Force KC 135 command pilot come to me to get a
CFI. His ratings at the time were ATP MEL Boeing 707. He
had not single-engine rating.

To train him for the single-engine CFI he needed training
and solo practice. The same areas of operation required for
a student pilot solo must also be demonstrated by any pilot
seeking to solo.

I flew with the tanker pilot, taught him how to fly from a
civilian airport [up to that point, when he called for taxi,
the military tower knew where he was parked, where he was
going and when he'd be back], taught him how to find grass
strips and even how to talk on the radio. He was a very
sharp pilot and fast learner, but he had never flown behind
a piston engine, prop or very much solo. As soon as we had
covered the required operations 61.87 I signed him off for
solo in single engine and complex aircraft. He then flew
solo, in an aircraft for which he was not rated to gain
experience. He could legally fly IFR but could not carry
passengers or fly for hire. We had to get him to the
commercial level and the CFI. It didn't take long, he made
several solo trips and we flew dual a total of about 15
hours (remember 10 hours is required for adding a commercial
certificate) and he did not holds ASEL.
He took his CP ASEL additional rating from the local DPE on
one morning and his CFI from the feds that afternoon.

It could have been the other way around. Another case, when
I was chief flight instructor, a student pilot asked me to
authorize a solo flight from Wichita to Hutchinson, Kansas
[about 35 miles]. He was not my regular student and his
instructor was out of town. I was scheduled with a another
student and just had a few minutes to review his paperwork.
Problems, his 90 day solo had expired and he had not been
signed off yet for solo cross-country flights. I said
"Sorry, don't have time to fly with you today." He said not
to worry, he'd just go fly his balloon. He then pulled a
Commercial lighter than air balloon certificate out of his
wallet.

He was signed off for solo and he was a rated pilot, I told
him to go ahead since he was a rated pilot and the student
pilot restrictions did not apply to him, but that 61.31 did,
so he could only fly solo until he took the practical test.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Peter Duniho" wrote in
message ...
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:JdW2g.7005$ZW3.3537@dukeread04...
| The whole section does not apply to STUDENT PILOT
| certificate holders
|
| Says who?
|
| You posting that statement here does not make it fact.
I'm certainly
| willing to believe it's true (as I've stated in other
messages), but so far
| I haven't seen any evidence suggesting that it's true.
|
| [...]
| 61.31 is required for solo, PIC solo and passenger
carrying.
| For instance, a private pilot [or better] can take
training
| in a Beech 18 for a multiengine rating and be signed off
for
| solo before the multi checkride.
|
| Under what regulation? Solo privileges are granted only
to student pilots,
| under 61.87. What regulation is it that you believe
authorizes someone
| other than the holder of a Student Pilot certificate to
have solo privileges
| in an aircraft for which they are not otherwise qualified
(rated,
| endorsements, etc)?
|
| A 61.31 endorsement is
| required as well as the training required by the
appropriate
| FAR section for solo.
|
| Since I don't believe someone other than a student pilot
can be given solo
| privileges in a category and class other than that for
which they are rated,
| the question of the 61.31 endorsement is moot.
Regardless, it's irrelevant
| to the question of what a student pilot needs (except
possibly to illustrate
| yet another inconsistency in the FARs, if true).
|
| Pete
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:QCZ2g.7750$ZW3.3692@dukeread04...
I had an Air Force KC 135 command pilot come to me to get a
CFI. His ratings at the time were ATP MEL Boeing 707. He
had not single-engine rating.
[lengthy narrative snipped]

Your own personal experience does not constitute rule-making.

Under what rule was that pilot allowed to fly solo without the necessary
category and class rating? On what Student Pilot certificate did you make
the required solo endorsement?

The rated pilot, holding a pilot certificate does not need a
student certificate. FAR 61.31 and 61.63 and
(c) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations
on the carriage of persons, or operating for compensation or
hire. Unless a person holds a category, class, and type
rating (if a class and type rating is required) that applies
to the aircraft, that person may not act as pilot in command
of an aircraft that is carrying another person, or is
operated for compensation or hire. That person also may not
act as pilot in command of that aircraft for compensation or
hire.

(d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations
on operating an aircraft as the pilot in command. To serve
as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must-

(1) Hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating
(if a class rating and type rating are required) for the
aircraft to be flown;

(2) Be receiving training for the purpose of obtaining an
additional pilot certificate and rating that are appropriate
to that aircraft, and be under the supervision of an
authorized instructor; or

(3) Have received training required by this part that is
appropriate to the aircraft category, class, and type rating
(if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to
be flown, and have received the required endorsements from
an instructor who is authorized to provide the required
endorsements for solo flight in that aircraft.

(e) Additional training required for operating complex
airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of
this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a
complex airplane (an airplane that has a retractable landing
gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller; or, in the
case of a seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch
propeller), unless the person has-

(i) Received and logged ground and flight training from an
authorized instructor in a complex airplane, or in a flight
simulator or flight training device that is representative
of a complex airplane, and has been found proficient in the
operation and systems of the airplane; and

(ii) Received a one-time endorsement in the pilot's logbook
from an authorized instructor who certifies the person is
proficient to operate a complex airplane.

(2) The training and endorsement required by paragraph
(e)(1) of this section is not required if the person has
logged flight time as pilot in command of a complex
airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device
that is representative of a complex airplane prior to August
4, 1997.

(f) Additional training required for operating
high-performance airplanes. (1) Except as provided in
paragraph (f)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot
in command of a high-performance airplane (an airplane with
an engine of more than 200 horsepower), unless the person
has-

(i) Received and logged ground and flight training from an
authorized instructor in a high-performance airplane, or in
a flight simulator or flight training device that is
representative of a high-performance airplane, and has been
found proficient in the operation and systems of the
airplane; and

(ii) Received a one-time endorsement in the pilot's logbook
from an authorized instructor who certifies the person is
proficient to operate a high-performance airplane.

(2) The training and endorsement required by paragraph
(f)(1) of this section is not required if the person has
logged flight time as pilot in command of a high-performance
airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device
that is representative of a high-performance airplane prior
to August 4, 1997.

(g) Additional training required for operating pressurized
aircraft capable of operating at high altitudes. (1) Except
as provided in paragraph (g)(3) of this section, no person
may act as pilot in command of a pressurized aircraft (an
aircraft that has a service ceiling or maximum operating
altitude, whichever is lower, above 25,000 feet MSL), unless
that person has received and logged ground training from an
authorized instructor and obtained an endorsement in the
person's logbook or training record from an authorized
instructor who certifies the person has satisfactorily
accomplished the ground training. The ground training must
include at least the following subjects:

(i) High-altitude aerodynamics and meteorology;

(ii) Respiration;

(iii) Effects, symptoms, and causes of hypoxia and any other
high-altitude sickness;

(iv) Duration of consciousness without supplemental oxygen;

(v) Effects of prolonged usage of supplemental oxygen;

(vi) Causes and effects of gas expansion and gas bubble
formation;

(vii) Preventive measures for eliminating gas expansion, gas
bubble formation, and high-altitude sickness;

(viii) Physical phenomena and incidents of decompression;
and

(ix) Any other physiological aspects of high-altitude
flight.

(2) Except as provided in paragraph (g)(3) of this section,
no person may act as pilot in command of a pressurized
aircraft unless that person has received and logged training
from an authorized instructor in a pressurized aircraft, or
in a flight simulator or flight training device that is
representative of a pressurized aircraft, and obtained an
endorsement in the person's logbook or training record from
an authorized instructor who found the person proficient in
the operation of a pressurized aircraft. The flight training
must include at least the following subjects:

(i) Normal cruise flight operations while operating above
25,000 feet MSL;

(ii) Proper emergency procedures for simulated rapid
decompression without actually depressurizing the aircraft;
and

(iii) Emergency descent procedures.

(3) The training and endorsement required by paragraphs
(g)(1) and (g)(2) of this section are not required if that
person can document satisfactory accomplishment of any of
the following in a pressurized aircraft, or in a flight
simulator or flight training device that is representative
of a pressurized aircraft:

(i) Serving as pilot in command before April 15, 1991;

(ii) Completing a pilot proficiency check for a pilot
certificate or rating before April 15, 1991;

(iii) Completing an official pilot-in-command check
conducted by the military services of the United States; or

(iv) Completing a pilot-in-command proficiency check under
part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter conducted by the
Administrator or by an approved pilot check airman.

(h) Additional aircraft type-specific training. No person
may serve as pilot in command of an aircraft that the
Administrator has determined requires aircraft type-specific
training unless that person has-

(1) Received and logged type-specific training in the
aircraft, or in a flight simulator or flight training device
that is representative of that type of aircraft; and

(2) Received a logbook endorsement from an authorized
instructor who has found the person proficient in the
operation of the aircraft and its systems.

(i) Additional training required for operating tailwheel
airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (i)(2) of
this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a
tailwheel airplane unless that person has received and
logged flight training from an authorized instructor in a
tailwheel airplane and received an endorsement in the
person's logbook from an authorized instructor who found the
person proficient in the operation of a tailwheel airplane.
The flight training must include at least the following
maneuvers and procedures:

(i) Normal and crosswind takeoffs and landings;

(ii) Wheel landings (unless the manufacturer has recommended
against such landings); and

(iii) Go-around procedures.

(2) The training and endorsement required by paragraph
(i)(1) of this section is not required if the person logged
pilot-in-command time in a tailwheel airplane before April
15, 1991.

...

| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:QCZ2g.7750$ZW3.3692@dukeread04...
| I had an Air Force KC 135 command pilot come to me to get
a
| CFI. His ratings at the time were ATP MEL Boeing 707.
He
| had not single-engine rating.
| [lengthy narrative snipped]
|
| Your own personal experience does not constitute
rule-making.
|
| Under what rule was that pilot allowed to fly solo without
the necessary
| category and class rating? On what Student Pilot
certificate did you make
| the required solo endorsement?
|
|

Jim Macklin wrote:

To train him for the single-engine CFI he needed training
and solo practice.

just a question: you say that he needed solo practice
because he wished to do so, right? (twould make sense,
to get a bit more stick time in the aircraft without having
to pay an instructor); but he actually was not required to
fly solo to get his single engine class rating if I understand
61.63(c)(4) correctly...

--Sylvain

Peter Duniho wrote

Under what rule was that pilot allowed to fly solo without the
necessary category and class rating? On what Student Pilot
certificate did you make the required solo endorsement?

Not the same situation, but......

(k) Exceptions.

(2) The rating limitations of this section do not apply to—

(i) An applicant when taking a practical test given by an examiner;

(ii) The holder of a student pilot certificate;

(iii) The holder of a pilot certificate when operating an aircraft under
the authority of—

(A) A provisional type certificate; or

(B) An experimental certificate, unless the operation involves carrying
a passenger;


If one builds a homebuilt twin, he does not need a MEL Certificate
in order to fly it solo.

However, if it is a homebuilt tailwheel airplane, he must have the
tailwheel endorsement because by being a "additional training
requirement" instead of a "rating requirement" it is not waived by
k(iii)(B)

Bob Moore

WE decided that since so much of his time was multi jet time
in a crew as both SIC and PIC he needed to get comfortable
with such things as P-factor and grass strips. He didn't
need to pay for me and I did have other students. I always
tried to save then students as much money as possible, so I
signed him off for solo and let him get comfortable.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Sylvain" wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
|
| To train him for the single-engine CFI he needed
training
| and solo practice.
|
| just a question: you say that he needed solo practice
| because he wished to do so, right? (twould make sense,
| to get a bit more stick time in the aircraft without
having
| to pay an instructor); but he actually was not required to
| fly solo to get his single engine class rating if I
understand
| 61.63(c)(4) correctly...
|
| --Sylvain

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:Jk_2g.7756$ZW3.7214@dukeread04...
[...]
(d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations
on operating an aircraft as the pilot in command. To serve
as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must-
[...] or

(3) Have received training required by this part that is
appropriate to the aircraft category, class, and type rating
(if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to
be flown, and have received the required endorsements from
an instructor who is authorized to provide the required
endorsements for solo flight in that aircraft.

Thank you. It seemed like such a regulation must have existed, but I
couldn't find it (and to be fair, you weren't providing it earlier).

That was exactly the information I needed to be properly informed.

as others have stated... 61.31(d)(3) is the paragraph used to solo flying of
power rated pilots working to get their glider rating.. it is an
"authorization to act as PIC in an aircraft that he does not hold the
appropriate category or class rating.

reference is AC61-65E, Appendix 1, published 11/29/2005, item 62

see also, 61.63(b) and 61.63 (c) for endorsements for recommendation to take
the practical test

BT


"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:QCZ2g.7750$ZW3.3692@dukeread04...
I had an Air Force KC 135 command pilot come to me to get a
CFI. His ratings at the time were ATP MEL Boeing 707. He
had not single-engine rating.
[lengthy narrative snipped]

Your own personal experience does not constitute rule-making.

Under what rule was that pilot allowed to fly solo without the necessary
category and class rating? On what Student Pilot certificate did you make
the required solo endorsement?

"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message
...
61.31(d) (2) is the catchall for training when a "student"
already has another rating and it "authorizes someone other
than the holder of a Student Pilot certificate to have solo
privileges in an aircraft for which they are not otherwise
qualified (rated, endorsements, etc)?"

Actually, it's 61.31(d)(3), but close enough. For some reason I just
wasn't seeing it. 61.31(d)(2) applies when the pilot is being supervised
while receiving training.

[...]
Note the"or" in the middle. Personally, I think the correct
procedure is to make all the required signoffs before solo.

I'm still not sure. Being shown the regulation that allows solo
endorsements for non-student pilots was helpful, but it still doesn't
address the question about whether the 61.31(i) endorsement is required for
solo in a tailwheel aircraft (for example).

Furthermore, now I'm a bit confused as to why the solo flight
privilege/requirements section in 61.87 is needed, given that 61.31(d)(3)
exists. Not that I've ever held any misconception that the FARs are always
consistent and non-redundant, but still. It seems like a general-purpose
regulation that covers all people, regardless of what pilot certificate they
hold, would be sufficient. And 61.31(d)(3) seems to cover this to some
extent (to be more complete, a one-size-fits-all regulation would carry the
additional training requirements that would not have been covered by
whatever pilot certificate is already held, if any).

Anyway, the bottom line here is that I'm still not seeing the resolution to
the ambiguity about whether the 61.31(i) endorsement is required for solo
flight (by a student pilot or otherwise).

Pete

We all were says 61.31, that is more than just the tailwheel
verbiage. Glad it was final resolved.


"Peter Duniho" wrote in
message ...
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:Jk_2g.7756$ZW3.7214@dukeread04...
| [...]
| (d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings:
Limitations
| on operating an aircraft as the pilot in command. To
serve
| as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must-
| [...] or
|
| (3) Have received training required by this part that is
| appropriate to the aircraft category, class, and type
rating
| (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft
to
| be flown, and have received the required endorsements
from
| an instructor who is authorized to provide the required
| endorsements for solo flight in that aircraft.
|
| Thank you. It seemed like such a regulation must have
existed, but I
| couldn't find it (and to be fair, you weren't providing it
earlier).
|
| That was exactly the information I needed to be properly
informed.
|
|