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History Channel
Robert Sveinson wrote:
The only one of those that is totally incorrect is Americans landing in Rabaul during WW2. Also incorrect. B17's being used during the day in Europe as they were precision bombers not carpet bombers as the RAF were ? No, that's not totally incorrect. When the weather was good B-17s delivered their bombs very accurately for that period. |
#2
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History Channel
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message m... Robert Sveinson wrote: The only one of those that is totally incorrect is Americans landing in Rabaul during WW2. Also incorrect. B17's being used during the day in Europe as they were precision bombers not carpet bombers as the RAF were ? No, that's not totally incorrect. When the weather was good B-17s delivered their bombs very accurately for that period. How accurately was that?? All the B-17s "toggle" their loads at the same time and only ONE bombardier doing the aiming! Bombs scattered over an area on the ground equal to the area of the spread of the aircraft in the air. Of course one can claim that at least one or two of the hundreds of bombs dropped hit the target so there is the proof of "very accurately"! The USAAF NEVER hit a target like the Tirptz, Antheor Viaduct, various Gestapo headquartes, Amiens prison, Saumur tunnel. The Tirpitz, the Antheor Viaduct, Saumur Tunnel were hit using ONE bomb per aircraft, as opposed to the USAAF shotgun method of bombing.. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey http://www.anesi.com/ussbs02.htm#eaocar The U. S. Army Air Forces entered the European war with the firm view that specific industries and services were the most promising targets in the enemy economy, and they believed that if these targets were to be hit accurately, the attacks had to be made in daylight. A word needs to be said on the problem of accuracy in attack. Before the war, the U. S. Army Air Forces had advanced bombing techniques to their highest level of development and had trained a limited number of crews to a high degree of precision in bombing under target range conditions, thus leading to the expressions "pin point" and "pickle barrel" bombing. However, it was not possible to approach such standards of accuracy under battle conditions imposed over Europe. Many limiting factors intervened; target obscuration by clouds, fog, smoke screens and industrial haze; enemy fighter opposition which necessitated defensive bombing formations, thus restricting freedom of maneuver; antiaircraft artillery defenses, demanding minimum time exposure of the attacking force in order to keep losses down; and finally, time limitations imposed on combat crew training after the war began. It was considered that enemy opposition made formation flying and formation attack a necessary tactical and technical procedure. **Bombing patterns resulted -- only a portion of which could fall on small precision targets.** The rest spilled over on adjacent plants, or built-up areas, or in open fields. Accuracy ranged from poor to excellent.** When visual conditions were favorable and flak defenses were not intense, bombing results were at their best. Unfortunately, the major portion of bombing operations over Germany had to be conducted under weather and battle conditions that restricted bombing technique, and accuracy suffered accordingly. Conventionally the air forces designated as "the target area" a circle having a radius of 1000 feet around the aiming point of attack. While accuracy improved during the war, Survey studies show that, in the over-all, only about 20% of the bombs aimed at precision targets fell within this target area. A peak accuracy of 70% was reached for the month of February 1945. These are important facts for the reader to keep in mind, especially when considering the tonnages of bombs delivered by the air forces. Of necessity a far larger tonnage was carried than hit German installations. |
#3
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History Channel
Robert Sveinson wrote:
No, that's not totally incorrect. When the weather was good B-17s delivered their bombs very accurately for that period. How accurately was that?? All the B-17s "toggle" their loads at the same time and only ONE bombardier doing the aiming! Bombs scattered over an area on the ground equal to the area of the spread of the aircraft in the air. Of course one can claim that at least one or two of the hundreds of bombs dropped hit the target so there is the proof of "very accurately"! That's not how it was done. They did not release bombs simultaneously, each bomber in formation released upon seeing the preceding bomber release its bombs. |
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History Channel
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
Robert Sveinson wrote: The only one of those that is totally incorrect is Americans landing in Rabaul during WW2. Also incorrect. B17's being used during the day in Europe as they were precision bombers not carpet bombers as the RAF were ? No, that's not totally incorrect. When the weather was good B-17s delivered their bombs very accurately for that period. But when it came to the crunch? Don't forget that the initial Dresden raid was supposed to have been flown by the Americans but they cried off because of bad weather, so the RAF stepped into the gap and played the lead role. American "precision" bombing in that same campaign also saw the Americans bomb Prague by mistake, although I don't know how accurately they did that. It certainly upset the Russians, who were in residence by that time! Essentially the Norden bomb sight worked only in clear skies - not an everyday thing in continental Europe, unlike California where it was developed. Also, to quote: "The trouble was, precision was another Norden myth. From 20,000 feet, 2/3 of American bombs fell 1/5 of a mile or more from their targets -- even with the best of bombsights. Meanwhile, the bombsight itself had been reclassified from secret to merely confidential two years before Lang's infamy. In 1942 it was downgraded to restricted, the lowest classification. By then we were switching to the English tactic of saturation bombing. A bomber armada flew over a city. The lead plane signaled the drop and they pulverized everything below -- hoping to catch occasional military targets in the general carnage." http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1004.htm -- Moving things in still pictures! |
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History Channel
®i©ardo wrote:
No, that's not totally incorrect. When the weather was good B-17s delivered their bombs very accurately for that period. But when it came to the crunch? Don't forget that the initial Dresden raid was supposed to have been flown by the Americans but they cried off because of bad weather, so the RAF stepped into the gap and played the lead role. American "precision" bombing in that same campaign also saw the Americans bomb Prague by mistake, although I don't know how accurately they did that. It certainly upset the Russians, who were in residence by that time! Essentially the Norden bomb sight worked only in clear skies - not an everyday thing in continental Europe, unlike California where it was developed. That's what I said. Also, to quote: "The trouble was, precision was another Norden myth. From 20,000 feet, 2/3 of American bombs fell 1/5 of a mile or more from their targets -- even with the best of bombsights. Which was very good compared to RAF night bombing accuracy. |
#6
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History Channel
"®i©ardo" wrote in message ... Steven P. McNicoll wrote: Robert Sveinson wrote: The only one of those that is totally incorrect is Americans landing in Rabaul during WW2. Also incorrect. B17's being used during the day in Europe as they were precision bombers not carpet bombers as the RAF were ? No, that's not totally incorrect. When the weather was good B-17s delivered their bombs very accurately for that period. But when it came to the crunch? Don't forget that the initial Dresden raid was supposed to have been flown by the Americans but they cried off because of bad weather, so the RAF stepped into the gap and played the lead role. American "precision" bombing in that same campaign also saw the Americans bomb Prague by mistake, although I don't know how accurately they did that. Isn't their claim that they didn't damage Prague at all because they spent all their acciracy on the rails in Dresden. They like to ignore their several ACCURATE bombing of SEVERAL Swiss cities. It certainly upset the Russians, who were in residence by that time! Essentially the Norden bomb sight worked only in clear skies - not an everyday thing in continental Europe, unlike California where it was developed. Also, to quote: "The trouble was, precision was another Norden myth. From 20,000 feet, 2/3 of American bombs fell 1/5 of a mile or more from their targets -- even with the best of bombsights. Meanwhile, the bombsight itself had been reclassified from secret to merely confidential two years before Lang's infamy. In 1942 it was downgraded to restricted, the lowest classification. By then we were switching to the English tactic of saturation bombing. A bomber armada flew over a city. The lead plane signaled the drop and they pulverized everything below -- hoping to catch occasional military targets in the general carnage." http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1004.htm -- Moving things in still pictures! |
#7
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History Channel
GC wrote in news:Xns9AAC7DCF6B15Biwwophotmailcom@
61.9.191.5: A question to the group. Is the History channel distorting the facts? I have noticed in recent weeks a number of totally incorrect comments .eg Americans landing in Rabaul during WW2,(its Rab owl by the way not Rab all) Never heard that, is certainly an error The shooting down of Yamamoto's aircraft was an assassination.. That's pretty much what it was. B17's being used during the day in Europe as they were precision bombers not carpet bombers as the RAF were ? US raids on Berlin, RAF raids on Berlin - what's the difference? They are a few of very many I can recall. Personally I have bigger problem with the way the market their shows than the content. "The mystery of...", "the truth is finally revealed", etc. |
#8
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History Channel
Mitchell Holman wrote in
: GC wrote in news:Xns9AAC7DCF6B15Biwwophotmailcom@ 61.9.191.5: A question to the group. Is the History channel distorting the facts? I have noticed in recent weeks a number of totally incorrect comments .eg Americans landing in Rabaul during WW2,(its Rab owl by the way not Rab all) Never heard that, is certainly an error The shooting down of Yamamoto's aircraft was an assassination.. That's pretty much what it was. B17's being used during the day in Europe as they were precision bombers not carpet bombers as the RAF were ? US raids on Berlin, RAF raids on Berlin - what's the difference? They are a few of very many I can recall. Personally I have bigger problem with the way the market their shows than the content. "The mystery of...", "the truth is finally revealed", etc. Ah thats another of my gripes as well, the bigger better best approach. My question on the B17's probably related to the fact the program totally ignored the Dams,the Tirpitz,etc all involving a touch of precision and you could hear the disdain in the commentators tone when referring to the RAF. This is not to denigrate the men who did the job, thanks to them I am able to write this ....... I figured the shooting down of Yamamoto whilst obviously a payback was done during wartime hence not an assassination but I see your point. |
#9
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History Channel
"GC" wrote in message ... My question on the B17's probably related to the fact the program totally ignored the Dams,the Tirpitz,etc all involving a touch of precision Yes the so called pundits with the most resources to get A message out to the public are the ones ignoring the facts, but it is also the consumers of these so called facts who want their fables fed to them by spoon rather than consulting reputable historians who are at fault as well. There was that fairey tale about U-571 which claimed that the US Navy intercepted secret signals from a U-Boat, decyphered the signals and using these spectacular results sent a force and captured said U-Boat. A true work of fiction, however people who saw this fairey tale asked me in all seriousness whether I had heard about this heroic episode of the anti submarine war. The final raid on the Tirpitz was made by 2 squadrons of Lancasters each carrying 1 (one) bomb each of 12,000 lbs. and scored 3 hits, causing the Tirpitz to roll over. Rather a precision attack, one bomb each per Lancaster rather than the SHOT GUN method using many smaller bombs. I figured the shooting down of Yamamoto whilst obviously a payback was done during wartime hence not an assassination but I see your point. As Yamamoto wore the military uniform of his country I believe that he was a legitimate target. There were some incomplete plans by the British to assasinate Hitler, although nothing in the end was done. These same British planners were not sad at not being able to kill Hitler, as they believed that Hitler alive suited their purposes more than Hitler dead. And he wore a military uniform as supreme commander of the German armed forces. |
#10
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History Channel
"Robert Sveinson" wrote in message
... "GC" wrote in message ... My question on the B17's probably related to the fact the program totally ignored the Dams,the Tirpitz,etc all involving a touch of precision Yes the so called pundits with the most resources to get A message out to the public are the ones ignoring the facts, but it is also the consumers of these so called facts who want their fables fed to them by spoon rather than consulting reputable historians who are at fault as well. There was that fairey tale about U-571 which claimed that the US Navy intercepted secret signals from a U-Boat, decyphered the signals and using these spectacular results sent a force and captured said U-Boat. A true work of fiction, however people who saw this fairey tale asked me in all seriousness whether I had heard about this heroic episode of the anti submarine war. The final raid on the Tirpitz was made by 2 squadrons of Lancasters each carrying 1 (one) bomb each of 12,000 lbs. and scored 3 hits, causing the Tirpitz to roll over. Rather a precision attack, one bomb each per Lancaster rather than the SHOT GUN method using many smaller bombs. I figured the shooting down of Yamamoto whilst obviously a payback was done during wartime hence not an assassination but I see your point. As Yamamoto wore the military uniform of his country I believe that he was a legitimate target. There were some incomplete plans by the British to assasinate Hitler, although nothing in the end was done. These same British planners were not sad at not being able to kill Hitler, as they believed that Hitler alive suited their purposes more than Hitler dead. And he wore a military uniform as supreme commander of the German armed forces. For what this is worth ... The man wore a military uniform only between 1914 and 1918 when he served with the16th Bavarian Reserve Regiment. During WW 2 his uniform marked him as leader of the NSDAP. That is, it was a party uniform. Contemporary photographs show Goebbels wearing much the same uniform at many rallies. Hitler's claim to command the German armed forces rested on his accepted position as Leader of the whole German nation. Churchill, on the other hand, wore military uniforms rather often. But (as a lurker's passing acknowledgment that this is an aviation newsgroup) I can't remember pics of him wearing an R.A.F. uniform showing a rank higher than Air Commodore. |
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