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#11
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You may not have liked his explaination, but John and Steve are correct.
The rotor coning depends on the rotor speed and the total rotor thrust (weight and load factor). It does not depend on the engine power or the rate of descent. A max gross weight auto gives the essentially the same coning as a max gross weight take off, or a max gross weight landing approach, or a max gross weight hover, etc.... "Bob" wrote in message ... The string starts with a guy asking a question of a pilot or a mechanic. I, being a longtime mechanic, try to answer his questionand stay ON TOPIC. The guy, and his original question, disappears! No offense to John, but we end up with a physicist. Start a new string...pullleeeeez!!!! Bob |
#12
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AND ONCE AGAIN...I DID NOT SAY HE IS INCORRECT. Does anyone read a STRING?
OR only the last comment/response? Too bad we can't see where we started or we would see how afar we wound up! The guy was asking about collective position vs. engine RPM, but who could possibly imagine just what the ORIGINAL question was now? |
#13
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Hey, you brought up coning, not me.
If you are so concerned with staying on topic, then why did you make your original (incorrect) statement about coning? It has nothing to do with autorotation except as it relates to rotor speed. "Bob" wrote in message news AND ONCE AGAIN...I DID NOT SAY HE IS INCORRECT. Does anyone read a STRING? OR only the last comment/response? Too bad we can't see where we started or we would see how afar we wound up! The guy was asking about collective position vs. engine RPM, but who could possibly imagine just what the ORIGINAL question was now? |
#14
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"Bob" wrote in message news AND ONCE AGAIN...I DID NOT SAY HE IS INCORRECT. Does anyone read a STRING? OR only the last comment/response? Too bad we can't see where we started or we would see how afar we wound up! The guy was asking about collective position vs. engine RPM, but who could possibly imagine just what the ORIGINAL question was now? Bob, My response was prompted by a statement you made that seemed to strongly imply that a rotor in autorotation had either "no" coning or at least, significantly less coning than a rotor in powered flight. That is something I disagree with. If I misunderstood you, then I apologize. OTOH, I've been known to "not" state my point of view as precisely as I would have liked on the first attempt and I've seen others do it too. FWIW, Fly Safe, Steve R. |
#15
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"Steve R." wrote in message ... "Bob" wrote in message news AND ONCE AGAIN...I DID NOT SAY HE IS INCORRECT. Does anyone read a STRING? OR only the last comment/response? Too bad we can't see where we started or we would see how afar we wound up! The guy was asking about collective position vs. engine RPM, but who could possibly imagine just what the ORIGINAL question was now? Ok Bob, I did a little search and here's the conversation in full! You'll note that in message #6, you said (and subsequently reminded me of) that there was "no cone to speak of" which is essentially saying, "there's no cone!" That part I disagree with. You also never really answered "my" question, posed in message #5 regarding why the pilot could go full down on the collective and have an overspeed problem with the engine idled but not with the engine and governor still in the equation. I'll repeat the question. Is the engine acting as a brake on the rotor rpm, not unlike a car running down hill, in gear, with the drivers foot off the gas? I'm just curious about this. I'm not trying to pick any fights. You're the one that brought up the coning angle part the first time in this conversation and some of us have questioned that. I still don't feel like there's been an answer to that part of the question, just some defensive responses. FWIW, Fly Safe, Steve R. Start Quote: ------------------------------ Message 1 in thread From: Eric D ) Subject: Autorotation ? R22 for the Experts View this article only Newsgroups: rec.aviation.rotorcraft Date: 2004-02-27 09:06:57 PST Here is a good question for the more experienced helicopter pilot or mechanic. A friend of mine that flies a late model Robison R22 Beta II asked this question of a number of individuals and no one seem to have an explanation. This included people at the manufacturer. I believe I know the answer, however, I would like to put the question out and see what others think before tainting their thoughts with my ideas. So here is the question: With one person flying the R22 (170lb), simulating an autorotation by rolling off throttle, the collective goes full down and pretty-much stays there to maintain proper rotor rpm. With two people, same maneuver, some collective has to be pulled to keep the main rotor from over-speeding. The amount of collective will obviously vary dependent on a number of factors, but for this example let's say about 1 inch off the stop. One more time with the same maneuver, with two on board, except let the governor control engine speed, and not rolling off throttle. In order to maintain rotor speed the collective has to be on the stop. The question is why? Please post your thoughts. Thanks, Eric DPost a follow-up to this message Message 2 in thread From: Bob ) Subject: Autorotation ? R22 for the Experts View this article only Newsgroups: rec.aviation.rotorcraft Date: 2004-02-27 17:18:01 PST In the first instance, you are not "simulating" an autorotation; with no engine OR no engine power applied to the rotor (throttle rolled off) you are "performing" an autorotation. With the engine throttle left in a flight position, the governor is GOVERNING rotor R.P.M. due to it's linkage to the collective and the engine which is what under any circumstances what it ACTUALLY GOVERNS, and ONLY THEREFORE can govern your rotor R.P.M. SO...collective bottomed...engine "running", governor GOVERNS rotor R.P.M. NO engine running (or no throttle applied) YOU govern rotor R.P.M. The other variables you alluded to will include gross weight per fuel on board, etc. BobPost a follow-up to this message Message 3 in thread From: herbie ) Subject: Autorotation ? R22 for the Experts View this article only Newsgroups: rec.aviation.rotorcraft Date: 2004-02-28 07:54:02 PST "Bob" wrote in message ... In the first instance, you are not "simulating" an autorotation; with no engine OR no engine power applied to the rotor (throttle rolled off) you are "performing" an autorotation. With the engine throttle left in a flight position, the governor is GOVERNING rotor R.P.M. due to it's linkage to the collective and the engine which is what under any circumstances what it ACTUALLY GOVERNS, and ONLY THEREFORE can govern your rotor R.P.M. SO...collective bottomed...engine "running", governor GOVERNS rotor R.P.M. NO engine running (or no throttle applied) YOU govern rotor R.P.M. The other variables you alluded to will include gross weight per fuel on board, etc. Bob One pob = collective fully down to maintain rotor speed. Two pob = collective not fully down to prevent overspeed. If helicopter is heavier will not the coning angle be greater and therefore the rotor speed higher because of less effective rotor diameter. Hence the need to pull some collective at heavier weight to slow blades and increase rotor disk diameter? Or maybe I'm talking b****x! It has been known!! HerbiePost a follow-up to this message Message 4 in thread From: Bob ) Subject: Autorotation ? R22 for the Experts View this article only Newsgroups: rec.aviation.rotorcraft Date: 2004-02-28 09:10:04 PST Herbie... YES. BUT...that wasn't the question. The question was given weight-throttle on vs. given weight-throttle off. BobPost a follow-up to this message Message 5 in thread From: Steve R. ) Subject: Autorotation ? R22 for the Experts View this article only Newsgroups: rec.aviation.rotorcraft Date: 2004-02-29 06:28:27 PST "Bob" wrote in message news Herbie... YES. BUT...that wasn't the question. The question was given weight-throttle on vs. given weight-throttle off. Bob I'm not sure I'm getting this either. The original poster was confused because, engine out of the equation, they had to "raise" the collective to prevent an overspeed. With the engine / governor still in the equation, they "didn't" have to raise the collective to prevent an overspeed. Now, if the collective is bottomed out and the MR blades are at an autorotative angle, wouldn't the rotor system try to outrun the engine / drive system? Or, is the engine acting as a brake in the situation, kind of like a car coasting downhill, using engine compressionas a brake? Just wondering? Fly Safe, Steve R.Post a follow-up to this message Message 6 in thread From: Bob ) Subject: Autorotation ? R22 for the Experts View this article only Newsgroups: rec.aviation.rotorcraft Date: 2004-02-28 09:34:42 PST And come to think of it...actually NO. Collective down, there's no cone to speak of or your rotor speed would be drooping.Post a follow-up to this message Message 7 in thread From: Steve R. ) Subject: Autorotation ? R22 for the Experts View this article only Newsgroups: rec.aviation.rotorcraft Date: 2004-02-29 06:32:05 PST "Bob" wrote in message ... And come to think of it...actually NO. Collective down, there's no cone to speak of or your rotor speed would be drooping. No cone? I'm not sure I agree with that. Even with the collective all the way down, there's still positive lift being generated by the rotor system. Maybe the coneing angle isn't what it would be in steady state, powered flight but I'm not sure it's accurate to say that there's "no" coning with the collective full down. Fly Safe, Steve R.Post a follow-up to this message Message 8 in thread From: Bob ) Subject: Autorotation ? R22 for the Experts View this article only Newsgroups: rec.aviation.rotorcraft Date: 2004-02-29 07:21:10 PST Steve... Kindly read my post carefully. I said NO CONE TO SPEAK OF. As in...it would not to compare to the cone present when trying to yank the helicopter off the ground at Max Gross Weight. The lift generated with the collective down is what keeps your rate of decent an "autorotative" rate, rather at terminal velocity As to your other post...when the collective is down with no engine power (on a real helicopter) the pitch links are adjusted to keep the auto-R.P.M. within an acceptable RANGE. That is a standard maintenance function, but it dosn't mean the pilot can go to sleep during an auto. Collective down, if rpm is too high- it's not adjusted properly, but the pilot can jockey the collective. If its too low it's DEFINATELY not adjusted properly and rots o' ruck. In my first post in this string ALL I was trying (apparently not too clearly) to explain is that if the engine is running (at all) the governor knows it. I am a heavy helicopter maintenance type and can't even spell Robinson, BUT even the most "rudimentary" if you will, helicopters have to operate with some derivation of dynamic principles and proven hardware concept application. The bottom line is in an auto, to keep the rotor in the green right off. Too High is always better than Too Low because the pilot can fix that. Good luck, BobPost a follow-up to this message Message 9 in thread From: John ) Subject: Autorotation ? R22 for the Experts View this article only Newsgroups: rec.aviation.rotorcraft Date: 2004-02-29 08:20:29 PST You will have almost as much blade cone in a STEADY auto rotation as in hover. The cone angle is the tangent of the vertical force vector verses the centrifugal l force vector generated by the rotation of the blades. The only force not supported by the blades in auto rotation is the force generated upward on the body of the helicopter by the vertical wind component. Due to this you will still have 90% or more of the cone angle when in hover. You can reduce the cone angle by speeding up the RPM of the blades since the centrifugal force generated depends on the square of the RPM. Most people keep the blade RPM at the top of the green in auto's anyway. John On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:14:24 GMT, "Bob" wrote: Steve... Kindly read my post carefully. I said NO CONE TO SPEAK OF. As in...it would not to compare to the cone present when trying to yank the helicopter off the ground at Max Gross Weight. The lift generated with the collective down is what keeps your rate of decent an "autorotative" rate, rather at terminal velocity As to your other post...when the collective is down with no engine power (on a real helicopter) the pitch links are adjusted to keep the auto-R.P.M. within an acceptable RANGE. That is a standard maintenance function, but it dosn't mean the pilot can go to sleep during an auto. Collective down, if rpm is too high- it's not adjusted properly, but the pilot can jockey the collective. If its too low it's DEFINATELY not adjusted properly and rots o' ruck. In my first post in this string ALL I was trying (apparently not too clearly) to explain is that if the engine is running (at all) the governor knows it. I am a heavy helicopter maintenance type and can't even spell Robinson, BUT even the most "rudimentary" if you will, helicopters have to operate with some derivation of dynamic principles and proven hardware concept application. The bottom line is in an auto, to keep the rotor in the green right off. Too High is always better than Too Low because the pilot can fix that. Good luck, Bob Post a follow-up to this message |
#16
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Hey Mike...
I've been looking out of helicopter windows at blade tip targets tracking, balancing, and setting autorotation RPM since I was done teething. SO you, your x,+,-,%, = signs, textbooks, drawing boards, engineering degrees, and any other credentials you might present can go elsewhere and tell someone about autorotations, heavy gross flights, hovers and blade tip paths. Don't sell it to me because seein' is believin', and I've seen plenty. Goodbye string...it's been a gas! |
#17
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First off, thanks to everyone that has responded to my original
posting. Bob, Your response was super, and I understood what you wrote. I believe what you described is right on the money for larger aircraft that you mentioned you worked on. The governor on the Robison R22 Beta II does not have linkage to the collective. The scenario I described in my original post is due to the sprag clutch. During low overrun speeds there is some drag through the sprag. As the overrun speed increase this drag decreases. To clarify, when speaking of overrun speed, it is the velocity across the sprag clutch, not rotor speed. I have limited helicopter maintenance experience on anything larger then a Robinson R44. I received my A&P in the early seventies and also have IA. I have worked on many types of aircraft over the years. My passion for Robinsons came about four years ago, so I'm still learning. I also have a fixed wing pilot's license and I have started working on learning how to fly an R22. I'm finding it a blast and I am really enjoying it. Thanks again for the great responses, Eric D |
#18
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And here's your answer. NO. If a helicopter is working correctly the
Freewheeling Unit or whatever it's called in the aircraft you are referencing DISENGAGES the ROTOR from the engine drive as in autorotation it disallows the engine to slow the rotor speed down AT ALL repeat AT ALL! |
#19
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And THANK YOU ERIC. Thought the dog ate ya, and I've been up to my ears
since I replied to your first question. Out of courtesy to the group, I'll still consider whatever aircraft you were addressing a, uhhhhhh, helicopter and leave the rest of this mess in your hands. If there was any help on my part, you're most welcome. Happy flying or whatever that contraption does |
#20
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"Bob" wrote in message ... And here's your answer. NO. If a helicopter is working correctly the Freewheeling Unit or whatever it's called in the aircraft you are referencing DISENGAGES the ROTOR from the engine drive as in autorotation it disallows the engine to slow the rotor speed down AT ALL repeat AT ALL! Got it! That's what I thought but maybe I missed something. Thanks! Fly Safe, Steve R. |
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