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#11
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soaring on Mars?
All you fixed wing weenies seemed to have glossed over the the fact that the first (heavier that "air") aircraft to fly on another planet will be the helicopter. On this planet it was the Wright 1902 glider.
Imagine the 3rd generation of first flights. On Saturday, January 16, 2021 at 7:40:50 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote: On 1/15/21 7:43 PM, 5Z wrote: On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 5:48:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote: On 1/15/21 6:39 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote: On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 16:13:49 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote: As any true aviator (helicopter pilot) knows the first flight on another world will be by the premier of all aircraft, the helicopter. Mankind's magic carpet. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/23/s...pter-nasa.html Yep, heard about it, but thanks for posting that URL. It will be interesting to see how well it does on RealMars (TM). In Martian conditions a helicopter makes more sense than a powered plane or glider because it should have a much lower landing speed. BTW, the Aurora ARES design had an inverted V tail on twin booms to keep the stabiliser clear of exhaust from a rocket unit mounted on the centre line at the wing's TE) - a common design in the S-8P rocket glider RC competition class which, oddly enough, Bob Parks competes in with his own- design models. What helicopter can fly at 100,000' (the air density in the Martian atmosphere)? If there is one, I'd like to know about the rotor design as my gyro plane can't get much above 10,000'. Oh yeah, it'll have to carry its own oxygen for combustion unless it's going to get really exotic. Well Dan, if you read the article, you'll see: "About 20 years ago, it couldn’t have been possible, really, because of the math,” said Ms. Aung who was a deputy manager of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory’s autonomous systems division before joining the Mars project. But a number of advances, such as miniaturization of electronics, batteries that stored more energy and materials that could be shaped into lightweight blades, had finally made the dream of Mars flying machines into a technological possibility, Ms. Aung said. Well Tom, I guess I've got a lot of reading to do. Do you remember Joe Berger? I believe he submitted a proposal for a fold up glider for the Mars project. Wonder what ever became of it/him. -- Dan 5J |
#12
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soaring on Mars?
Highest I could find was the Mil Mi-8 at 30,000'. The air at 30,000' on
Earth is a lot thicker than on Mars at any altitude. So, how can it be done with a helicopter? On 1/17/21 11:02 AM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote: All you fixed wing weenies seemed to have glossed over the the fact that the first (heavier that "air") aircraft to fly on another planet will be the helicopter. On this planet it was the Wright 1902 glider. Imagine the 3rd generation of first flights. On Saturday, January 16, 2021 at 7:40:50 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote: On 1/15/21 7:43 PM, 5Z wrote: On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 5:48:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote: On 1/15/21 6:39 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote: On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 16:13:49 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote: As any true aviator (helicopter pilot) knows the first flight on another world will be by the premier of all aircraft, the helicopter. Mankind's magic carpet. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/23/s...pter-nasa.html Yep, heard about it, but thanks for posting that URL. It will be interesting to see how well it does on RealMars (TM). In Martian conditions a helicopter makes more sense than a powered plane or glider because it should have a much lower landing speed. BTW, the Aurora ARES design had an inverted V tail on twin booms to keep the stabiliser clear of exhaust from a rocket unit mounted on the centre line at the wing's TE) - a common design in the S-8P rocket glider RC competition class which, oddly enough, Bob Parks competes in with his own- design models. What helicopter can fly at 100,000' (the air density in the Martian atmosphere)? If there is one, I'd like to know about the rotor design as my gyro plane can't get much above 10,000'. Oh yeah, it'll have to carry its own oxygen for combustion unless it's going to get really exotic. Well Dan, if you read the article, you'll see: "About 20 years ago, it couldn’t have been possible, really, because of the math,” said Ms. Aung who was a deputy manager of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory’s autonomous systems division before joining the Mars project. But a number of advances, such as miniaturization of electronics, batteries that stored more energy and materials that could be shaped into lightweight blades, had finally made the dream of Mars flying machines into a technological possibility, Ms. Aung said. Well Tom, I guess I've got a lot of reading to do. Do you remember Joe Berger? I believe he submitted a proposal for a fold up glider for the Mars project. Wonder what ever became of it/him. -- Dan 5J -- Dan 5J |
#13
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soaring on Mars?
On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 12:56:41 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:
Highest I could find was the Mil Mi-8 at 30,000'. The air at 30,000' on Earth is a lot thicker than on Mars at any altitude. So, how can it be done with a helicopter? 'Simplicate and add lightness' (wish I knew who first said that). Judging be the look of the Mars Helicopter that will be carried by the Mars 2020 mission's rover, that's pretty much exactly what they did: it has a single rotor shaft supporting a pair of contra-rotating two-blade rotors. Its electric powwred, but with a relatively small battery and, to keep it chanrged, a set of photocells mounted on top of the rotor mast. https://mars.nasa.gov/technology/helicopter/ Well, only 31 days until it lands on Mars and, since the plot is to fly the chopper before the rover goes off exploring the crater it should land in, we haven't long to wait before we see if it can fly. -- -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org |
#14
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soaring on Mars?
Sounds terrific!
'Simplicate and add lightness' (wish I knew who first said that). It was Orville (or Wilbur) Wright that said that. On 1/17/21 2:06 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote: On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 12:56:41 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote: Highest I could find was the Mil Mi-8 at 30,000'. The air at 30,000' on Earth is a lot thicker than on Mars at any altitude. So, how can it be done with a helicopter? 'Simplicate and add lightness' (wish I knew who first said that). Judging be the look of the Mars Helicopter that will be carried by the Mars 2020 mission's rover, that's pretty much exactly what they did: it has a single rotor shaft supporting a pair of contra-rotating two-blade rotors. Its electric powwred, but with a relatively small battery and, to keep it chanrged, a set of photocells mounted on top of the rotor mast. https://mars.nasa.gov/technology/helicopter/ Well, only 31 days until it lands on Mars and, since the plot is to fly the chopper before the rover goes off exploring the crater it should land in, we haven't long to wait before we see if it can fly. -- Dan 5J |
#15
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soaring on Mars?
On June 21, 1972, Jean Boulet of France piloted an Aérospatiale SA 315B Lama helicopter to an absolute altitude record of 40,814 feet (12,440 m).
And on May 14, 2005, Didier Delsalle became the first (and only) person to land a helicopter, the Eurocopter AS350 Squirrel, on the 8,848 m (29,030 ft) summit of Mount Everest. Pretty cool accomplishments, but Perlan 2 got to 76,124 ft. on September 2, 2018 for the highest altitude achieved in a (manned, unpowered) glider. And, as a "fixed wing weenie" who also appreciates helicopters, I challenge ol' Jonathan to a power off glide contest. Heck, I know some wingsuit guys who would also beat his rotors off in a glide duel. |
#16
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soaring on Mars?
On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 15:49:59 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:
Sounds terrific! 'Simplicate and add lightness' (wish I knew who first said that). It was Orville (or Wilbur) Wright that said that. I just did a search: it seems to be more generally attributed to William Bushnell Stout, who designed the Ford Trimotor and secondarily to Colin Chapman, the engineer behind Lotus cars, who said something very similar. -- -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org |
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