ASH 26E VS DG 808C

At 20:00 28 October 2006, wrote:
In the Antares 20E, to extend and start the motor:

Push the power control forward.
10 seconds later you're under power.
THATS ALL.

To retract the motor:

Pop up the little mirror
Pull the power control back.
For your entertainment, watch the prop step to vertical
and
disappear.
Put away the little mirror.
15 seconds later you're clean.

No cool-down cycle.
No prop-stop fiddling.
No multiple controls to operate.
No priming fiddling or 'automatic' primer flooding.
No fussing with throttle setting to start.
No fuel valve.
No ignition switch to forget (laugh, but many times
per year this
happens).
No starter button.
No engine master switch.
No extension/retraction controls.
No backfires.
No belt to break or adjust.
No manual pnuematic input switching.
No fun at all, eh ?

See ya, Dave
http://www.nadler.com

PS: You can leave the little mirror out if that's still
too complicated
!

PPS: OK, its true, you do have to turn it on before
you go flying.



Thats way too easy like parking the new Lexus. The
more things you have to fiddle with the better.

I may have missed it on this thread...but is the cost
of these things a secret? I can go to Ebay and price
Ferraris and Maseratis.....

Can we safely guess somewhere between $150k-$200k?
Or put another way...
a new selflauncher=towplane, 10 year old glider and
hangar?

On Oct 28, 8:09 pm, Stewart Kissel
wrote:
Or put another way...
a new selflauncher=towplane, 10 year old glider and hangar?

Unfortunately, the dollar is doing poorly against the euro... I hear a
new ASH-26E ready to fly with instruments and Cobra trailer is pushing
$200K. Just the trailer will buy a decent used sailplane...

But, in the last 22 years, I've owned 2 other sailplanes, and was able
to sell each for the same amount as I had originally paid. So the real
cost of owning such a ship is pretty much insurance and maintenance, as
the purchase price can generally be recoveredduring the sale of the
ship.

-Tom

5Z wrote:

On Oct 28, 8:09 pm, Stewart Kissel
wrote:
Or put another way...
a new selflauncher=towplane, 10 year old glider and hangar?

Unfortunately, the dollar is doing poorly against the euro... I hear a
new ASH-26E ready to fly with instruments and Cobra trailer is pushing
$200K. Just the trailer will buy a decent used sailplane...

But, in the last 22 years, I've owned 2 other sailplanes, and was able
to sell each for the same amount as I had originally paid. So the real
cost of owning such a ship is pretty much insurance and maintenance, as
the purchase price can generally be recoveredduring the sale of the
ship.

If you don't require a 50:1, 18 meter self-launcher, but could be happy
with a 40:1 15 meter self-launcher, take a look at the Apis and Silent
offerings, which were under $100K the last time I looked. For a two
seater, the Taurus looks attractive, but it's more money (not $200K
though!).


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

At 03:36 29 October 2006, Eric Greenwell wrote:
The belts that broke at the Parowan camp were the propeller
drive belts,
not the fan belt (the water pump is driven directly
by the engine - no
belt). The drive belts on the 26 E fleet did not break
for many years
(for example, mine is 12 years old and has 114 hours
on it), but a few
of newest gliders have had this happen. We've been
told that Gates, the
belt manufacturer, changed the construction of the
belts about three
years ago, and the consequences of that change are
now surfacing.

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly

'Transponders in Sailplanes' on the Soaring Safety
Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

'A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation' at
www.motorglider.org


The Gates Poly Chain belts are the best you can buy
and in properly designed drives will last a long long
time as demonstrated by their use for driving camshafts
in automobiles for 100,000 miles. In spite of their
strength they have been broken in both DG and ASH drive
systems but possibly for different reasons. What the
belts do not like are shock loads and the internal
cords can easily be damaged by something as simple
as improper storage.
The belt failures on DG’s are thought to be caused
by shock loads imposed during starting/low rpm where
the power pulses are most uneven. On the DG's the best
prevention is to minimize the shock loads by getting
past the low rpm phase as quickly as possible and optimizing
cold start fuel delivery.

The ASH failures may be due to another problem that
being storage. The gates preventive maintenance manual
clearly states that the stored belts should not be
subjected to bending beyond that which is defined as
the minimum pulley diameter as it may damage internal
cording resulting in premature failure.
The belts are obviously designed to be used in a straight
line without twisting which may be the reason why twisting
is not specifically identified as something to be avoided
in the Gates manual.
The ASH drive system puts a 90-degree bend into the
belts when the engine is stowed into a relatively hot
environment. If you explained these failures to a Gates
engineer and showed them the drive design they may
point out that twisting in heated storage could be
a contributing factor.

See we do have some things in common.

Gary Evans wrote:

The ASH failures may be due to another problem that
being storage. The gates preventive maintenance manual
clearly states that the stored belts should not be
subjected to bending beyond that which is defined as
the minimum pulley diameter as it may damage internal
cording resulting in premature failure.
The belts are obviously designed to be used in a straight
line without twisting which may be the reason why twisting
is not specifically identified as something to be avoided
in the Gates manual.
The ASH drive system puts a 90-degree bend into the
belts when the engine is stowed into a relatively hot
environment. If you explained these failures to a Gates
engineer and showed them the drive design they may
point out that twisting in heated storage could be
a contributing factor.

I have no knowledge of what Schleicher's discussions with Gates have
been; however, the ASH belt breaking problem is a recent one. Older
belts don't break - it's the NEW belts that are breaking. My belt is 12
years old, the engine has 114 hours on it, and at least 600 starts. When
I discussed belt life with Martin Heide (the "H" in ASH) about 3 years
ago (which was before the current problem), he said several 26 Es had
been in the shop for the 250 hour motor inspection, and all belts were
in good condition.

It could be the twisting has become a problem due to the change in belt
construction that Schleicher says has caused the recent problems, but I
doubt it. When a belt breaks with only 5 or 10 hours on it, it doesn't
seem long enough for degradation to occur. I suspect the culprit is also
shock loading, but that's speculation on my part, since I haven't
discussed it with the factory or Gates.

In any case, a prospective buyer might want to discuss the issue with
Schleicher, and remember that a glider ordered now won't be delivered
for many months, during which the problem is likely to be solved, if it
isn't already.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:B341h.1741$B44.1220@trndny07...
Gary Evans wrote:

The ASH failures may be due to another problem that
being storage. The gates preventive maintenance manual
clearly states that the stored belts should not be
subjected to bending beyond that which is defined as
the minimum pulley diameter as it may damage internal
cording resulting in premature failure.
The belts are obviously designed to be used in a straight
line without twisting which may be the reason why twisting
is not specifically identified as something to be avoided
in the Gates manual.
The ASH drive system puts a 90-degree bend into the
belts when the engine is stowed into a relatively hot
environment. If you explained these failures to a Gates
engineer and showed them the drive design they may
point out that twisting in heated storage could be
a contributing factor.

I have no knowledge of what Schleicher's discussions with Gates have been;
however, the ASH belt breaking problem is a recent one. Older belts don't
break - it's the NEW belts that are breaking. My belt is 12 years old, the
engine has 114 hours on it, and at least 600 starts. When I discussed belt
life with Martin Heide (the "H" in ASH) about 3 years ago (which was
before the current problem), he said several 26 Es had been in the shop
for the 250 hour motor inspection, and all belts were in good condition.

It could be the twisting has become a problem due to the change in belt
construction that Schleicher says has caused the recent problems, but I
doubt it. When a belt breaks with only 5 or 10 hours on it, it doesn't
seem long enough for degradation to occur. I suspect the culprit is also
shock loading, but that's speculation on my part, since I haven't
discussed it with the factory or Gates.

In any case, a prospective buyer might want to discuss the issue with
Schleicher, and remember that a glider ordered now won't be delivered for
many months, during which the problem is likely to be solved, if it isn't
already.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Is the ASH-26 a Walter Binder installation design?
It seems so different than the other Retract-Engine Sailplanes.

Hartley Falbaum
DG800B "KF"

HL Falbaum wrote:
"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:B341h.1741$B44.1220@trndny07...
Gary Evans wrote:

The ASH failures may be due to another problem that
being storage. The gates preventive maintenance manual
clearly states that the stored belts should not be
subjected to bending beyond that which is defined as
the minimum pulley diameter as it may damage internal
cording resulting in premature failure.
The belts are obviously designed to be used in a straight
line without twisting which may be the reason why twisting
is not specifically identified as something to be avoided
in the Gates manual.
The ASH drive system puts a 90-degree bend into the
belts when the engine is stowed into a relatively hot
environment. If you explained these failures to a Gates
engineer and showed them the drive design they may
point out that twisting in heated storage could be
a contributing factor.

I have no knowledge of what Schleicher's discussions with Gates have been;
however, the ASH belt breaking problem is a recent one. Older belts don't
break - it's the NEW belts that are breaking. My belt is 12 years old, the
engine has 114 hours on it, and at least 600 starts. When I discussed belt
life with Martin Heide (the "H" in ASH) about 3 years ago (which was
before the current problem), he said several 26 Es had been in the shop
for the 250 hour motor inspection, and all belts were in good condition.

It could be the twisting has become a problem due to the change in belt
construction that Schleicher says has caused the recent problems, but I
doubt it. When a belt breaks with only 5 or 10 hours on it, it doesn't
seem long enough for degradation to occur. I suspect the culprit is also
shock loading, but that's speculation on my part, since I haven't
discussed it with the factory or Gates.

In any case, a prospective buyer might want to discuss the issue with
Schleicher, and remember that a glider ordered now won't be delivered for
many months, during which the problem is likely to be solved, if it isn't
already.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Is the ASH-26 a Walter Binder installation design?
It seems so different than the other Retract-Engine Sailplanes.

Hartley Falbaum
DG800B "KF"

IIRC, Binder does the Solo-based DG and SH designs, and I think
some others (maybe Eta and the ASH-25 EB derivative he produces)...
I don't think he's involved with the Midwest installations in
Schleicher
products.

Antares was developed entirely independently of the other designs.

Best Regards, Dave

Hi Andy,
Information on the battery system can be found he
http://lange-flugzeugbau.com/htm/eng...tares_20e/batt
ery_system.html


At 14:42 30 October 2006, Andy wrote:

wrote:

PS: It was pointed out that I forgot:

NO GASOLINE AND NO GASOLINE FUMES !

See ya, Dave

Can you comment on the expected battery life and the
cost of
replacement? Can the owner replace the batteries?

thanks

Andy

Andor Holtsmark wrote:
Hi Andy,
Information on the battery system can be found he
http://lange-flugzeugbau.com/htm/eng...tares_20e/batt
ery_system.html


Thanks. That tells me I should expect to replace the batteries at
least every 10 years but I found no informatoion on cost or whether it
was approved owner maintenance.

Andy