Chilling tale by Dick Rutan

Moe wrote:

why would a "fighter pilot General" be debating a point that
was (in terms of task prioritization) largely ridiculously
irrelevant, given the situation at hand ?


Ask the General when you meet him.

What did he know? What was his condition? Without a record of the
conversation between the cockpits of Strobe 01, we'll never even
have a clue in this life.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...02/ai_n9030914


Jack

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 07:43:57 -0400, "St. John Smythe"
wrote:

Moe wrote:
But the General outranked him and ordered him to leave it in the OFF
position, thereby making each seat a single-initiated ejection".

So, in a debate regarding flight safety, who is supposed to have the
last word, the PIC or the ranking officer?

IIRC OPNAV 3710 Series says that the Mission Commander has the final
say in operational decisions unless over-ridden by a flag officer or
an officer n tactical command (air wing commander, squadron commander,
etc.). That authority includes the power to over-ride "safety of
flight" questions. If a senior officer over-rides the normal decision
making chain then they assume the responsibility for the outcome (good
or bad).

I presume the Air Force has a similar rule.

It seems to me that the General's decision was flawed; while the
General might always be right he's always the General. The GIB had no
choice but to go along.

To the guys wth F-4 time: The story notes a small fire forward (in
the camera bay?). When the rear canopy separated and an airflow
channel developed, could that blast of high speed air (300kts.+++?)
have created enough of a "blow torch" effect to have
incapacitated/killed the pilot even assuming he had his mask on, visor
down, Nomex properly secured, etc.?


Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

St. John Smythe wrote:
Moe wrote:
But the General outranked him and ordered him to leave it in the OFF
position, thereby making each seat a single-initiated ejection".

So, in a debate regarding flight safety, who is supposed to have the
last word, the PIC or the ranking officer?


Yes.

Seriously, unless the "seeing eye Major" was an IP, the General was
probably both ranking officer and PIC. But Generals get a lot of
deference, either way.


Jack

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 09:37:15 -0400, wrote:

It seems to me that the General's decision was flawed; while the
General might always be right he's always the General.

Oops. That should read, "might not always be right..."
Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

588 wrote:

St. John Smythe wrote:
Moe wrote:
But the General outranked him and ordered him to leave it in the OFF
position, thereby making each seat a single-initiated ejection".

So, in a debate regarding flight safety, who is supposed to have the
last word, the PIC or the ranking officer?


Yes.

Great answer Jack, you shudda stopped there!...

STM, if it had been me, I'd have selected 'command' then if any
flak had developed I'd have said shrug "Dunno...I selected off"
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

Dave in San Diego wrote:
cut

Distance means little when there is no radio to receive what is being
transmitted. The UHF radio in the F-4 resided under the back seat,
requiring removal of the seat bucket (and included rocket motor) for
maintenance, making it a huge PITA for the tweets and AMEs. Ejection
essentially kills the radio.

Dave in San Diego

Of course but that wasn't the point, he seemed to think that he
'was too far away' at, what a couple hundred feet at most? and
that getting closer would help when of course it wouldn't make
the slightest difference at all...but, as someone said, stress
does odd things to one's common sense.
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 15:30:43 GMT, Gord Beaman
wrote:

588 wrote:

St. John Smythe wrote:
Moe wrote:
But the General outranked him and ordered him to leave it in the OFF
position, thereby making each seat a single-initiated ejection".

So, in a debate regarding flight safety, who is supposed to have the
last word, the PIC or the ranking officer?


Yes.

Great answer Jack, you shudda stopped there!...

STM, if it had been me, I'd have selected 'command' then if any
flak had developed I'd have said shrug "Dunno...I selected off"

In the AF, the "aircraft commander" is the decision maker. That would
be the front-seater in an F-4. This changes if the other crew-member
is an instructor pilot ACTING IN THE IP ROLE. AF regulations have long
specified that a GO must be accompanied by an IP in a two-place
airplane. Dunno if there was an IP on the flight in this instance.
I've played IP to GOs in the F-4 and there was no doubt in my mind who
was in charge and I made it clear to the GO during pre-flight
briefing.

That being said, the command-selector valve in the R/C/P was installed
to provide an option for just this situation. In normal operation, if
the F/C/P initiated ejection it would by default be a dual sequenced
ejection with the R/C/P going first and the front seat following
three-tenths of a second later. This deconflicts the seats and keeps
the back cockpit safe from rocket burns.

If the rear seat initiated a normal ejection, the rear only would go.
With the Command Selector Valve installed (this was a TCTO mod), when
rotated 90 degrees, it allowed for dual sequenced ejection to be
initiated from the rear also. The idea was with the front seater
incapacitated or unable to initiate the ejection, the GIB could get
both out.

My briefing was always for the GIB to leave the valve in normal
position as I didn't want to be surprised by him determining we needed
to eject for some reason. I would only allow the CSV to be rotated at
the time I determined a necessity to do so, such as in an in-flight
emergency where I believed there would be a high-probability of
needing that option. I specifically told the GIB that if he ever
rotated the handle without my express orders and I found out about it
I would kill him--slowly and painfully.

In this situation, I'm pretty sure I would have initiated the ejection
from the front or directed rotation of the handle in case things
deteriorated faster than I could control. The possibility of ejection
causing flash fire into the remaining cockpit was pretty well known.

As it was, in my experience flying the F-4 for about 1600 hours, I
never had cause to tell the GIB to rotate the handle. Other folks
would brief that they wanted the handle rotated at all times. Some
would rotate only for T/O and landings.

Different strokes.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Tex Houston wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message
oups.com...

Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 15:53:39 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote:


As is Don Hartnett who was on one of those BUFFs,

Harten. That was Don Harten. They say the memory is the second thing
to go...forgot what's first.
Ed Rasimus

IIRC forgetfulness is a good way to not remember
things like anniversary's etc.
The two accounts emerging about the General's
death are different, would the OP's account of
D. Rutans statement be a fabrication?
I'm a bit confused.
Ken

Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)


Ken,

Two different incidents. Notice the difference in names?

July 7, 1967 MajGen William J. Crumm (KIA)

July 23, 1968 MajGen Robert Worley (KIA)

Regards,

Tex Houston

Thanks Mr. Houston, I owe ya one!
I see that now...
http://members.aol.com/warlibrary/vwc4.htm
Regards
Ken