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#131
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Electrically Powered Ultralight Aircraft
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:40:29 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in : Larry Dighera wrote: On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 17:39:44 -0400, Dana M. Hague d(dash)m(dash)hague(at)comcast(dot)net wrote in : safety if the batteries are damaged in a crash is still an issue. I would think the hazard somewhat less than gasoline. The battery can produce it's own ignition source. You have a point. While a source of ignition (sparking wires, hot muffler?) is required to ignite post-crash gasoline fumes, it would take an un-fused short circuit or significant deformation of a battery to potentially ignite a lithium battery. Granted, if the crash occurs as a result of fuel exhaustion, there is little fire hazard, while the lithium would always be aboard. |
#132
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Electrically Powered Ultralight Aircraft
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:40:29 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in : Larry Dighera wrote: On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 17:39:44 -0400, Dana M. Hague d(dash)m(dash)hague(at)comcast(dot)net wrote in : safety if the batteries are damaged in a crash is still an issue. I would think the hazard somewhat less than gasoline. The battery can produce it's own ignition source. You have a point. While a source of ignition (sparking wires, hot muffler?) is required to ignite post-crash gasoline fumes, it would take an un-fused short circuit or significant deformation of a battery to potentially ignite a lithium battery. Granted, if the crash occurs as a result of fuel exhaustion, there is little fire hazard, while the lithium would always be aboard. How much of a fire hazard would a paper battery be? http://www.energy-daily.com/reports/...per _999.html |
#133
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Electrically Powered Ultralight Aircraft
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 12:23:00 GMT, CanalBuilder
wrote in : How much of a fire hazard would a paper battery be? http://www.energy-daily.com/reports/...per _999.html That is an interesting device indeed. Given these quotes from the article: Rensselaer researchers infused this paper with aligned carbon nanotubes, which give the device its black color. The nanotubes act as electrodes and allow the storage devices to conduct electricity. The device, engineered to function as both a lithium-ion battery and a supercapacitor, can provide the long, steady power output comparable to a conventional battery, as well as a supercapacitor's quick burst of high energy. ... Along with use in small handheld electronics, the paper batteries' light weight could make them ideal for use in automobiles, aircraft, and even boats. The paper also could be molded into different shapes, such as a car door, which would enable important new engineering innovations. "Plus, because of the high paper content and lack of toxic chemicals, it's environmentally safe," Shaijumon said. ... "Plus, because of the high paper content and lack of toxic chemicals, it's environmentally safe," Shaijumon said. "It's a way to power a small device such as a pacemaker without introducing any harsh chemicals - such as the kind that are typically found in batteries - into the body," Pushparaj said. I find the article to be somewhat contradictory in its characterizing a lithium-ion battery as containing no harsh chemicals. And its claim of using carbon electrodes in a supercapacitor seem very counterintuitive for a low impedance device. It reads like an April Fools Day hoax. |
#134
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Electrically Powered Ultralight Aircraft
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#135
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Electrically Powered Ultralight Aircraft
In rec.aviation.piloting Charles Vincent wrote:
wrote: In rec.aviation.piloting Tim Ward wrote: wrote in message ... The advantage from the electric engine at cruise is that it uses zero energy. Snippage -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. You want to support this, somehow? Tim Ward At cruise the electric motor is turned off. The only energy used is some slight bearing friction. The electric motor is only turned on when more power than the gas engine can provide is needed. To carry more weight at the same speed and altitude takes more power, so you have to account for the energy expended kiting you deadweight electric takeoff system around the sky as well. Sizing an engine for cruise has been done, if only backwards. Think JATO. Most JATO's are actually RATO (rocket assisted takeoff). I expect RATO would beat an electric system based on energy density and the fact that when it is done you have reduced your weight by the fuel. I also suspect for a given amount of thrust the rocket will be lighter than an electric motor and associated clutches and gearing. In my opinion, at this point in time it is just as practical for a homebuilt as well as in not. Well, that's true enough, but the above was about hybrid cars. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#136
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Electrically Powered Ultralight Aircraft
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#138
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Electrically Powered Ultralight Aircraft
In rec.aviation.piloting cavelamb himself wrote:
wrote: To carry more weight at the same speed and altitude takes more power, so you have to account for the energy expended kiting you deadweight electric takeoff system around the sky as well. Sizing an engine for cruise has been done, if only backwards. Think JATO. Most JATO's are actually RATO (rocket assisted takeoff). I expect RATO would beat an electric system based on energy density and the fact that when it is done you have reduced your weight by the fuel. I also suspect for a given amount of thrust the rocket will be lighter than an electric motor and associated clutches and gearing. In my opinion, at this point in time it is just as practical for a homebuilt as well as in not. Well, that's true enough, but the above was about hybrid cars. No, it's not true enough. To carry more weight at the same speed and altitude requires more LIFT. A higher CL - and/or more wing area. THEN, to overcome the increased drag, THEN you need more power. But more power by itself won't satisfy the constraints... So if I add 1 pound to a 2400 pound gross aircraft loaded to 2300 pounds, it would be impossible to cruise at the same speed and altitude without the 1 pound unless I added wing area? How about 50 pounds? -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#139
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Electrically Powered Ultralight Aircraft
In rec.aviation.piloting Charles Vincent wrote:
wrote: In rec.aviation.piloting Charles Vincent wrote: wrote: In rec.aviation.piloting Tim Ward wrote: wrote in message ... The advantage from the electric engine at cruise is that it uses zero energy. Snippage -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. You want to support this, somehow? Tim Ward At cruise the electric motor is turned off. The only energy used is some slight bearing friction. The electric motor is only turned on when more power than the gas engine can provide is needed. To carry more weight at the same speed and altitude takes more power, so you have to account for the energy expended kiting you deadweight electric takeoff system around the sky as well. Sizing an engine for cruise has been done, if only backwards. Think JATO. Most JATO's are actually RATO (rocket assisted takeoff). I expect RATO would beat an electric system based on energy density and the fact that when it is done you have reduced your weight by the fuel. I also suspect for a given amount of thrust the rocket will be lighter than an electric motor and associated clutches and gearing. In my opinion, at this point in time it is just as practical for a homebuilt as well as in not. Well, that's true enough, but the above was about hybrid cars. Well in cruise in a car, more weight does not increase your aerodynamic drag like it does on an airplane, but it does increase your rolling resistance in the real world, so there is no free lunch. Different tradeoffs for different missions. I guess that is why cheetahs and sparrows look so different. Unless the added weight is enough to deform the tires, the increase in rolling resistance in the total energy expediture can't be found. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#140
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Electrically Powered Ultralight Aircraft
cavelamb himself wrote:
wrote: To carry more weight at the same speed and altitude takes more power, so you have to account for the energy expended kiting you deadweight electric takeoff system around the sky as well. Sizing an engine for cruise has been done, if only backwards. Think JATO. Most JATO's are actually RATO (rocket assisted takeoff). I expect RATO would beat an electric system based on energy density and the fact that when it is done you have reduced your weight by the fuel. I also suspect for a given amount of thrust the rocket will be lighter than an electric motor and associated clutches and gearing. In my opinion, at this point in time it is just as practical for a homebuilt as well as in not. Well, that's true enough, but the above was about hybrid cars. No, it's not true enough. To carry more weight at the same speed and altitude requires more LIFT. A higher CL - and/or more wing area. THEN, to overcome the increased drag, THEN you need more power. But more power by itself won't satisfy the constraints... The original remark said "To carry more weight at the same speed and altitude takes more power" -- which you have now taken the time to substantiate with more detail. It never said it was the only factor, and didn't need to, to rebut the earlier claim. I do not understand how you arrive at it not being true. Frankly, I would expect any one engaged in building or flying an airplane to understand those relationships, and based on the FAA's published pilot exam questions and other materials, it seems they agree. Charles |
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