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#1
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F-14 on the History Channel's "Modern Marvels"
A couple of night ago the History Channel aired a program about the
F-14. During the promo it was stated that the Tomcat is the world's fastest fighter. I dunno, every aviation book in my house puts it clearly behind the F-15 and the MiG 25. Also, the program stated that the Shah of Iran ordered a fly-off between the F-14 and the F-15 in order to decide which one he was gonna buy. But when the narrator was talking about the Eagle, they showed footage of what was clearly an F-5. So, what's going on here? Am I wrong, is the Tomcat actually faster than the Eagle. And what's up with the F-5 footage? Did the US offer the Shah F-5s or F-15s? Did the documentary show the wrong footage, or did the narrator misread the copy, or was he given the wrong copy? When I get confusing information from a documentary it makes me doubt the validity of the entire work. Did anyone else see the program, or can anyone give me some clear and unimpeachable facts? Thanks in advance, Brian J. McCann |
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#3
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They definitely blew that one: using footage that isn't suiting to the text
and the story. The Shah has not "ordered" a fly-off: he requested the opportunity to fly each plane AFTER the IIAF has already made its mind. The fly-off was offered to him after all the briefings in Tehran, and because the Pentagon would not let him fly the F-14 or F-15. Iran, nevertheless, ordered F-5E/Fs already before it ordered the F-14s: these were intended as interim solution unitl the decision about the YF-16 or YF-17 would be made. Re. speed: the F-15 should have the official top speed some 200km/h higher than the F-14. If you're confused about the quality of the show in question, it's easy to find out how well researcherd it is: have they maintained that the F-14 saw no serious service within the IRIAF during the war agianst Iraq? Tom Cooper Co-Author: Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988: http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php and, Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat: http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585 |
#4
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"Tom Cooper" wrote in message
... They definitely blew that one: using footage that isn't suiting to the text and the story. The Shah has not "ordered" a fly-off: he requested the opportunity to fly each plane AFTER the IIAF has already made its mind. The fly-off was offered to him after all the briefings in Tehran, and because the Pentagon would not let him fly the F-14 or F-15. Iran, nevertheless, ordered F-5E/Fs already before it ordered the F-14s: these were intended as interim solution unitl the decision about the YF-16 or YF-17 would be made. Re. speed: the F-15 should have the official top speed some 200km/h higher than the F-14. If you're confused about the quality of the show in question, it's easy to find out how well researcherd it is: have they maintained that the F-14 saw no serious service within the IRIAF during the war agianst Iraq? I've seen the show in question and it's full of basic errors. They did make the claim that it's the fastest fighter in the world which I don't think even in its day it was. Can't remember if they even mentioned the Iranian angle. John |
#5
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"Brian J. McCann" wrote:
A couple of night ago the History Channel aired a program about the F-14. Also, the program stated that the Shah of Iran ordered a fly-off between the F-14 and the F-15 in order to decide which one he was gonna buy. But when the narrator was talking about the Eagle, they showed footage of what was clearly an F-5. And what's up with the F-5 footage? Did the US offer the Shah F-5s or F-15s? While on the whole History channel is worth it, they do make some real screwups, the film editors appear to grab ANY footage that looks good and put it in , hoping that no-one notices. and with that, its ruins their creditablity. On another thought.. When they came to KY to film the Glacier Girl first flight. they messed with the film. they had LOTS of good footage, and cut it to pieces. There was a camera crew on the ground and another in the air in a camera plane. very little of it made the airing. They did the Hollywood edit routine.. shame too... |
#6
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Snip
If you're confused about the quality of the show in question, it's easy to find out how well researcherd it is: have they maintained that the F-14 saw no serious service within the IRIAF during the war agianst Iraq? They made no mention of the Iran-Iraq war. What they DID say was that the F-14s were sabotaged, possibly by Grumman technicians, at some point during the revolution. They made it clear that the Tomcats would be useless as weapons platforms without the destroyed/missing components. |
#7
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Certainly not faster than the MIG 25. As for the Eagle, the F-15 clearly
has superior thrust/weight (maybe not much versus the F-14B/D), but that doesn't necessarily translate to top speed. Inlet performance, trim drag, etc come into play as one exceeds transonic speeds (1.2+). Most books have the F-14A listed at 2.34IMN ... it actually went 2.41 or 2.42 once in the test program. The B's and D's actually have a little lower top end. The airplane is NATOPS limited to 1.88 (I think due to instability with a burner blowout above that speed ... the TF-30's weren't great fighter motors), but its acceleration was still impressive at that speed so I'm confident 2.0+ was easily achievable. The F-15 has usually been noted to have a top end of 2.5+ or 1650mph, but I've never seen an actual achieved top end nor am I familiar with a particular dash-1 limit. I suspect it's actually quite a bit less. Discounting Streak Eagle, I'd be curious to know what the Eagle can do. I'd be curious to know what speeds typical pilots have seen in the jet. R / John |
#8
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Around 20 years ago, I heard a rumor that all copies of the software
were destroyed. Mark Brian J. McCann wrote: Snip They made it clear that the Tomcats would be useless as weapons platforms without the destroyed/missing components. |
#9
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"John Carrier" wrote in message ...
Certainly not faster than the MIG 25. As for the Eagle, the F-15 clearly has superior thrust/weight (maybe not much versus the F-14B/D), but that doesn't necessarily translate to top speed. Inlet performance, trim drag, etc come into play as one exceeds transonic speeds (1.2+). Most books have the F-14A listed at 2.34IMN ... it actually went 2.41 or 2.42 once in the test program. The B's and D's actually have a little lower top end. The airplane is NATOPS limited to 1.88 (I think due to instability with a burner blowout above that speed ... the TF-30's weren't great fighter motors), but its acceleration was still impressive at that speed so I'm confident 2.0+ was easily achievable. The F-15 has usually been noted to have a top end of 2.5+ or 1650mph, but I've never seen an actual achieved top end nor am I familiar with a particular dash-1 limit. I suspect it's actually quite a bit less. Discounting Streak Eagle, I'd be curious to know what the Eagle can do. I'd be curious to know what speeds typical pilots have seen in the jet. R / John The lowered top speed wasn't primarily due to the blowout but due to operational longevity. Most of today's US aircraft detuned engine wise to save the taxpayer's money. When I last spoke to a RIO and on one occassion he told me that he told his pilot to back off the throttle as they we already over Mach 2.x. I guess they both weren't paying attention to speed. This was sometime last year. The operational top speed can be surpassed. BTW, the F15's has got a cap as well. IIRC, it's M1.81. Of course, the aircraft can fly past this. In fact, in a past Red Flag a F15 has a hard time intercepting a RAAF F111 in which the F15 ran out of gas. The overall acceleration numbers between the F15 and the F14B/D are identical that's if the F14's wings are positioned at Auto. The F14A was only a second behind. If the wings were set the manual and fully aft, the F14B/D would be a great deal faster. Due the aerodynamics of the F14, it's overall drag profile (CDp) (LE 45 deg for the F15 and 68 deg for the F14) is lower than the F15's thus a lower thrust requirement to reach top speed. Which btw, during F14 testing, once the aircraft hit the top speed requirement, they backed off the throttles. Top speeds are only great for any aircraft when the aircraft is clean with no pylons. I do recall a post from an USAF crew chief at Nellis that the F15 did hit M2.5. If you were to compare the aircraft at the transonic regime and do a drag race from M0.9 to Mach 1.8 or whatever speed, you'll see that the F14 will get there quicker. SEP for both the F14B/D and F15 are identical in the transonic regime. Nevertheless, another RIO, Chunx, posted at a forum and said in the 90's that the F14B/D was known as the "world's fastest aircraft". I guess that was due to the ability to unload and change the aero profile and extend quickly from a fight thus dictating it. He doesn't know if the latest F16 blocks with the newer engines out accelerate the F14B/D when the wings are fully aft. So things may have changed. Hoever, from what I read from F14 drivers, F18 drivers have a hard time intercepting it. JD |
#10
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In fact, in a past Red Flag a F15 has a hard time intercepting a RAAF
F111 in which the F15 ran out of gas. In fact, in a past Red Flag a F15 has a hard time intercepting a RAAF F111 in which the F15 ran out of gas. I can imagine anything would about run out of gas trying to intercept a Vark, especially from 6 O' clock. Ron Pilot/Wildland Firefighter |
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