Taking newbies flying...

On 12/13/06 16:28, Robert Chambers wrote:

Mark Hansen wrote:

At least that's my theory. It may just be so much crap.


Maybe, but craps been known to cause nausea as well ;-)



Spoken by someone that sounds like they've changed a diaper or two.

Whew... there should be a law against those "WMD"s ;-\

Stefan wrote:

Thomas Borchert schrieb:

Uhm, I'm afraid you are wrong. This is not illegal in the US. The word
"command" in PIC is taken seriously in the US - the PIC can decide
what happens onboard, including who is manipulating the controls. A
PIC in the US could sit in the baggage compartment.


I'm not sure he may hand over the controls to an unqualified person,

He may, at his discretion. Want to get a good discussion going, tell
them you're going to let your kid fly but you'll log the time. Gets the
logbook nazis all in a snit.

I'm not sure he may hand over the controls to an unqualified person, except if needed, of course. But always eager to learn something.

In the US, there is no rule prohibiting that action. It is legal. If
there is an accident, there is always the universal "careless and
reckless" clause, but its use does not imply that =all= cases of turning
over the contorls would be careless and reckless. Only that this
particular (hypothetical) case, which =did= result in a crash, was.

One can clearly be careful and prudent when handing over the controls,
and one can be careless and reckless. This is true of any action.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

on my first flight my instructor promised me that he would knock me out
if i didn't release the controls after he told me to

Mark Levin wrote:
On 14-Dec-2006, Stefan wrote:

What is the big F'en problem, here?

Yes, it ended well. But not everything's well that ends well. The
accident database is full of things which happened to end well 999 times
and ended as a statistic the 1000th.

There are several problems.

The only real problem I see with this flight was that no "I've got the
controls" protocol was worked out beforehand. Of course it probably was and
just omitted by the original poster. If I was letting a passenger take
controls during takeoff (something that I personally would not do), I would
want to make certain that if something happened where I needed to take the
controls NOW that the passenger would release the controls to me NOW.

I use to fly with a friend pretty often and would let him take controls at
altitude whenever he cared to. He knew that when I said "I've got the
controls" that meant hands in lap feet on floor.

I'm surprised the passenger had no issue w/right rudder during the takeoff
roll and rotation. Left turning tendency certainly isn't something most
non-pilots expect.

ml

Stefan writes:

First problem, it's just plain illegal.

It's not illegal in the U.S. As long as you have a pilot in command
who is licensed to fly, he can allow other people (including
non-pilots) to control the aircraft.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Stefan writes:

I'm not sure he may hand over the controls to an unqualified person,
except if needed, of course.

He may hand over the controls to anyone. He is responsible for
whatever happens, but he is not required to be the person actually
controlling the aircraft.

And I think this is a good thing.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote

I don't think it had anything to do with me taking the controls. I think it
was the end of the aerobatics (and the adrenalin rush) that caused it. I have
a mental image of fluid swishing around the semicircular canals in my inner
ear during the aerobatics, but at least it agreed with what was happening.
Then we were straight and level, but the fluid was still swishing around. The
incongruity caused the nausea.

At least that's my theory. It may just be so much crap.+++++++++++++++----

Could be. Here's another one.

I was sailboating (25 footer) on the Western end of Lake Erie. Less then 18 feet
deep, in most places. Dad and me with the rest of the family along, on our
first year with the boat.

A sudden squall line blew up, with winds clocked at over 60 knots, and that was
on land, and before it got to us. We were too far from land to get to shelter
in time. Waves, we estimated, were greater than 12 feet, with not more than 50
feet, crest to crest. Very steep waves, indeed. We only had limited choices
with our sails (no storm jib, and only a single reef point on the main) and soon
the motor was not enough to keep us into wind, quartering the waves, even with
just bare poles. The only option was to throw out the anchor, with 100 feet of
line. It held, and surprisingly, it did not pull the cleats out of the bow.
O'Day makes one tough little boat, we decided after that!

Side note to the people that like sailing. Immediately after this experience,
we had two more reef points put into the main sail, and purchased a 30% jib, and
a sea anchor. The sea anchor is basically a parachute for the water, to keep
the boat correctly oriented with the wind, as it blows along with the storm.

I have never been sick from motion, before this. Everyone on the boat was sick
as a dog, except for my brother. He sat and concentrated on the horizon, and
willed himself to not get sick.

He didn't. Almost.

When the storm finally slacked off, the waves went back down to two to three
footers again, just as quickly as they came up. We got underway, and he finally
relaxed, and stopped concentrating on the self control, and you guessed it. He
finally lost his lunch.

My theory is that it all goes back to will controlling the sensations. While
you were doing the acro, you were no doubt concentrating on not being sick.
Afterward, you relaxed, and the disorientation done before finally did it's
work.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
--
Jim in NC

That's the key.. over there. There are more laws over there to tell you
how to behave than there are here. But never fear, this country is
catching up by adding laws to take away from personal responsibility.

For now though it's perfectly legal (in the U.S.)

Stefan wrote:
Thomas Borchert schrieb:

Uhm, I'm afraid you are wrong. This is not illegal in the US. The word
"command" in PIC is taken seriously in the US - the PIC can decide
what happens onboard, including who is manipulating the controls. A
PIC in the US could sit in the baggage compartment.


I'm not sure he may hand over the controls to an unqualified person,
except if needed, of course. But always eager to learn something.

(Actually, I thought it to be legal myself earlier, deducing from the
sea laws. Then I've learnt that in aircraft, it is not, at least not
over here.)

Stefan

Morgans wrote:
A sudden squall line blew up, with winds clocked at over 60 knots, and that
was on land, and before it got to us. We were too far from land to get to
shelter in time. Waves, we estimated, were greater than 12 feet, with not
more than 50 feet, crest to crest.

=== clipped for brevity ===

My theory is that it all goes back to will controlling the sensations. While
you were doing the acro, you were no doubt concentrating on not being sick.
Afterward, you relaxed, and the disorientation done before finally did it's
work.


My first career was as a dive instructor and I've been out in 12 foot seas
myself, although in a bigger (35') boat. I have never been either airsick or
seasick, though I felt seasick my first time out in the Atlantic (6' seas in a
24' boat). That first time out on the water others got sick and so I took many
photos of them chumming the water, laughing as I clicked away. After a while
the motion got to me and sheer willpower prevented me from feeding the fish
myself. I knew that had I disgraced myself, I'd never hear the end of it,
especially considering how merciless I'd been when the shoe was on the other
foot.

For me, the secret to avoiding seasickness is 1) take an antiemetic the night
before and then again at breakfast; 2) eat a light, non-greasy breakfast but
definitely eat something; 3) stay away from the stern of the boat where diesel
fumes come boiling over the gunwhale; 4) stay out in the breeze no matter how
hard it's raining or how hot it is; 5) never look down; 6) sheer willpower.

In the airplane, I hadn't felt any nausea during the aerobatics... it didn't
come on until we were straight and level again and it persisted for a couple of
hours after the flight. But I didn't disgrace myself or my father (also an
airman). I use most of the anti-seasick methods to help me out (except the
drugs). I make the cockpit cool and have the air blowing right into my face. I
make sure my last meal wasn't a burrito, etc.

In my T-34 flight, will power played a part, but only in the last 15 minutes or
so of flight. I honestly didn't feel any nausea before that.


--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

does anybody know where the regulation is? i can't find it in the FAR
but then again, i'm not anywhere near an expert

Robert Chambers wrote:
That's the key.. over there. There are more laws over there to tell you
how to behave than there are here. But never fear, this country is
catching up by adding laws to take away from personal responsibility.

For now though it's perfectly legal (in the U.S.)

Stefan wrote:
Thomas Borchert schrieb:

Uhm, I'm afraid you are wrong. This is not illegal in the US. The word
"command" in PIC is taken seriously in the US - the PIC can decide
what happens onboard, including who is manipulating the controls. A
PIC in the US could sit in the baggage compartment.


I'm not sure he may hand over the controls to an unqualified person,
except if needed, of course. But always eager to learn something.

(Actually, I thought it to be legal myself earlier, deducing from the
sea laws. Then I've learnt that in aircraft, it is not, at least not
over here.)

Stefan