Sad day for Mxsmanic

In article ,
says...


In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

writes:

Then their objective in the game is to crash the airplane.

Everyone has objectives when playing a game or using a simulator, but
simulators do not have objectives built in, whereas games do.

Games without built-in objectives are common enough that there's a name
for the gen "sandbox games".

Just because MSFS is a sandbox game doesn't mean it's not a game.



It's what you make of it really.
I used it during my instrument training to practice holds and approaches.
It's a very poor simulator, in that it does a poor job of emulating the
response of the airplane, but it was - ever so slightly - better than
nothing.

I think it's safe to assume that most users fly it as a game, landing
747's at Kai-Tek when in reality they would not be able to hold heading
and altitude in a C152, but that doesn't exclude that it can have some
limited usefulness in training. It is definitely not adequate for ab
initio airplane training, and it would not be possible to move with any
substantive success from MSFS to an airplane of any type, because it does
too poor a job of emulating the airplane, however if you already know how
to fly it is possible to go the other way - from airplane to MSFS, because
what you already know allows you to compensate some of the insufficiencies
of the program, and well just ignore others.

I gave it to my 9 -year old nephew after I was done with it. He's older
now, and I think he flies fighter jets with it. I don't think he is under
the illusion he could fly any airplane for real.

All

I'm gonna step in here and actually 'defend' some of MX's comments (I
can't believe I'm doing this).
Yes he can be a pain in the arse on this and other forums but some of
his comments do bear some form of
'sense'. How MANY of you who denounce what the 'simulator' does have
actually USED it with quality
payware addons aircraft? Just because it doesn't cost 100million,
doesn't have a hydraulic platform and isn't
accredited as a licensed training aid by the FAA (or whoever) does not
mean it doesn't have a purpose. Sure it
CAN be used casually as a GAME but can also be used to supplement any
real life training.

MS Flight Simulator in it's default (out of the box) infancy is pretty
useless and Microsoft have themselves to
blame it's demise for bringing the title into the 'Games' range. I've
been using it for 5 years now and will
defend it's merits in aiding and supplementing flight training. Sure
it will NEVER takeover from real life
training but it DOES help!!

There are many software vendors who make extremely accurate and highly
detailed aircraft which can be
purchased seperately and can cost more than FSX itself. Perhaps the
leading supplier is PMDG who have
accurately modelled the 737NG-600/700/800/900, the MD11 and the Queen
of the Skies 747-400. ALL these
aircraft come with at least 95% of ALL systems modelled. If you just
used the 'default' aircraft I would whole
heartidly DEFEND everone of you in critising FSX as these are
extremely basic and most systems are not
modelled or very poorly so.

Here are two of the most detailed and respected aircrafts available:
http://www.precisionmanuals.com/priv.../fsx/744x.html
http://www.precisionmanuals.com/priv.../fsx/md11.html

PMDG have REAL qualified commercial pilots on their team with years of
experience respective to the
particular aircraft they are designing. They help in the modelling of
the systems and flight dynamics etc.
I have the PMDG 747-400 which models everything from the Primary
Flight Display, the Navigation Display,
EICAS and all its associated warnings and status displays for engines,
fuel, hydraulics, doors, electrical etc.
EFIS with Map, Approach, Plan and VOR modes of display, decision
heights and Baro pressure can be
entered too, the Mode Control Panel is fully functional with Heading
Select, IAS/MACH Speed Control, Flight
Level Change, VS, altitute, bank angles, Flight Director, Approach and
Localiser capture switches, VNAV and
LNAV are also all modelled. Fuel systems, hydraulics, pressurisation,
autopilot, autothrottle systems, the
FMC is also FULLY functional and incorporates the latest AIRAC Cycles
(903 current) containing all
navigational waypoints, VORS, NDBs, SIDS, STARS etc etc. Full routes
can be programmed with
corresponding DEP/ARR routes, speed and altitude contraints can be
inputed, INIT/REF can be entered with
Zero Fuel Rate, Gross WEIGHT, COST INDEXES, T/O Thrust derates, Climb
Thrust Derates etc etc and
generate the correct wet or dry V1, VR and V2 speeds. VNAV can be
controlled for climb, cruise and descent whether it
ECON (based on Cost Index) mode or manual, Fixes can be added, Holds
can be programmed, Route and
Legs pages can be shown on the FMS and if the EFIS is set to PLAN
routes can be stepped through on the ND
like the real thing. Inertial Reference System is functional and GPS
giving accurate global positioning.

Real life start up procedures HAVE to be followed to enable it to
start from a Cold and Dark status from
initially enabling the battery switch, through to demand pumps, egine
driven pumps, fuel control switches,
bleed air switches etc etc the list is endless. Failure to carry out
the procedures in the correct order will fail to
start the aircraft.

What I DO know is that if I sat down in a real life simulator I WOULD
know how to operate a large proportion
of its systems. I DO know how to read the PFD with it's speed tapes,
compass rose, pitch bars, mode
annunciator. I DO know that on takeoff the aircraft will pitch the
nose down at 1000AGL (or a manual entry in
the FMC) and start to increase in speed, I know that flaps will be
retracted when their limit speed is indicated
in the PFD, I DO know that when I select Flaps 5 that the engine
thrust will change from Take Off Thrust to
Climb thrust. I DO know all the effects the MCP will have over the
automated route in the FMC. I DO know
how the use the ND, I DO know how to programme the FMC and the effects
of most of the pages. I DO know
how to set up a Standard Terminal Arrival with transitions in the FMC
and enter ILS frequencies and radials.

If this 'Game' was SO pathetic then how is the above possible? I know
the effects of moving the yoke, rotating
the yoke controls the ailerons and also produces yaw which is why the
rudder should be used at the
commencement of a turn (coordinated turns). I know pulling back or
pushing controls the elevator control surfaces
at the tail of the aircraft. I know the effects of using the elevator
trim in controlling a constant climb or descent or for level
flight. I know that Pitch controls airspeed and thrust controls
attitude.

This 'humble and pathetic game' taught me all that and when I stepped
into a REAL Cessna last year to begin
my flight training it was ALL very familiar. I knew what every gauge
did, every dial, I knew how to tune the
radios and Nav radios, I knew how to tune a VOR and intercept and
track a radial, I know about DME etc too and NDB's.

I knew that if I gently pulled back on the yoke the aircraft would
pitch up, the altitude would increase and the
airspeed would decrease. I knew that if I rolled the aircraft my
heading would change and the aircraft would
yaw and start to descend as we lose lift under the wings due to the
position of the ailerons and I would have to
pull back a little on the yoke to produce a level turn.
Again ALL learnt from MS Flight Simulator.

As MX was saying airliners ARE following an Active Route in the FMC
for 90% of their flight and this, subject to
complications or standard ATC restrictions, requires very little
input. Sure you'd be ****ting your pants IRL
but ATC COULD assist you in bringing the aircraft down via the MCP and
clearing the skies of any conflicting traffic. Headings can be given
to vector you,
speed intermissions and altitude and VS speeds can bring it down all
via the autopilot. The NAV/RAD page
on the FMC can easily be setup as instructed and the aircraft can be
vectored by ATC on an intercept course
for an ILS CAT3 runway with autoland with all three autopilots
enabled. The 747-400 has autoland
capabilities with LAND3, Rollout and Flare armed. Spoilers can be
armed and Autobrakes which will bring the aircraft
to a complete stop. Yes hand flying a descent profile would be next
to impossible for a novice but MX is
refering to autoland capabilities of the majority of aircraft.

There are MANY pilots both in the general aviation and commercial
fields who use FS to supplement their knowledge and
enjoyment of aviation so could you fine people please give us a bit of
slack. MX has unfortunately destroyed
ANY credibility the sim has but insinuating it's the be-all and end-
all and all that's required to become a real
life pilot which it isn't.

All I'm demonstrating is that it CAN help even a novice to understand
the complexities of aviation as it did for
myself so deserves some credit rather than simply be denounced as a
game like some shoot em up.

Ibby

"Ibby" wrote in message news:bacb5831-cd8b-4726-bfc1-

It's not about MSFS, it's about MX.

However, since MSFS is the only experience MX has, it gets a bad name by
default.

There are groups for games and simulation, and if discussing MSFS was MX's
real motive, that's where he would be.

Go ahead and engage the dumb ass. Most of us made that mistake at one time
or another. You will find he is nothing but a prick in sheeps clothing.

On Mar 2, 6:19*pm, Ibby wrote:

The NAV/RAD page
on the FMC can easily be setup as instructed and the aircraft can be
vectored by ATC on an intercept course

Ibby

Lbby,

Sounds like you do have a reasonable head on your shoulders so
hopefully you will get the gist of my post..

Imagine you in seat 20F. The plane you are in is inbound for LAX.
The plane is descending through 25000 feet. Sudden lurch in the
plane, due to the front row passengers (AKA pilot and copilot) keels
over dead.

Flight attendant calls into the cockpit, plane is still on the descent
profile and no answer. FA, decides it's an emergency, beats the
living daylights out fo the cockpit door to gain access (after all
it's locked from the inside) finds the bodies. Passengers seeing this
starts panicking. The FA's in turn have enough wits about them after
finding the dead bodies call into the cabin is there anybody in the
plane that is a pilot. Plane now descending through 15000 feet.

You raise your hand, the FA wisks you in the front seat, you now
descending through 10000 feet. Remember, jets don't descent at the
cozy rate of 500 fpm.

You really think you are going to have enough time to figure out how
to get the headset on, find the button to contact ATC, MOVE the bodies
out of your way to climb into the left or right seat, and then ATC is
going to have time to find someone to walk you through the complicated
FMC procedures before you buy the farm? There is no reset button, and
autoland is something that wouldn't be set on a descent profile for an
approach I don't think?????

Please think of the human adrenalin factor. Iceman we are not.....

The reality is that even as a private pilot, I seriously doubt that I
would be able to find the right knobs to twist in the vast array of
the digitalized world that would sit in front of me.

The stuff is massive to comprehend under a simulated environment
without the danger of buying the farm. To expect somebody like myself
who does fly a SE plane who never set foot in the cockpit of a
commercial jet to be able to follow programming instructions for the
FMC and set it up for autoladning just is not realistic.

Yeah, I am sitting at the comforts of my computer, I study day in and
day out of the procedures of a 767 FMC, the above scenario pans out.
You don't think a person wouldn't have a brain fart due to the
adrenalin factor from the chaos developing behind you from the
passengers and yourself saying WTF do I do next?

I can say with experience and working with the Garmin 430 simulator on
my computer and using the Garmin 430 in my plane, that the simulator
isn't the real deal. Clicking on the knob to tune the radio, moving
my mouse just a little bit without my head turnign ain't the real
deal.

Flying in my plane, scanning my instruments IN IMC, doing all I can to
reduce the movement of my head to tune my 430 is not the same as
clicking a mouse on my simulator. Is it the big knob or little knob,
Is it the knob on the right or is it the knob on the left. Little
knob, what do you mean little knob, I see bunches of knobs. what page
is the approach plate on, is it the big knob or little knob. Oh yeah,
still need to scan my instruments to stay upright. Dang it, can't
pull the manual out, I am flying a plane!

MSFS will NEVER simulate the real deal of push, pulling, turning,
tuning ir twisting any aircraft avionics. It doesn't simulate
reaching across the panel, holding the plane upright (remember, I have
to scan my instruments to remain upright, can't assume autopilot will
do that for you!!)

As I have posted many, many times, and I have used MSFS X. Flying an
approach on the computer just doesn't simulate the physical sensations
of IMC. Not sure if you ever been in IMC, not even sure if you are a
pilot, but if you never been in IMC, please talk to a IA rated pilot
and ask him to take you up. You will never look at a cloud the same
way.

writes:

Wrong, X-Plane is not part of any flight simulator certified by the FAA.

It is part of a Personal Computer-based Aviation Training Device, which
is something else entirely.

No, it's not something else at all. It's a simulator. All training devices
are simulators.

What they actually claim it is is "an engineering tool that can be used
to predict the flying qualities of fixed and rotary wing aircraft".

They claim a lot of things, including "... since X-Plane has been approved for
flight-training in many countries to many levels, you should be able to use
it to build your own flight simulator ..." which tacitly acknowledges the
equivalence between the two.

writes:

Wrong again as apparently you don't know what the term "flight simulator"
means.

Who is constrained to abide by FAA rules, exactly?

Maxwell writes:

It's not about MSFS, it's about MX.

Then criticism of MSFS or simulators in general is unwarranted, isn't it?

However, since MSFS is the only experience MX has, it gets a bad name by
default.

So if a pilot you don't like flies a Cessna 152, does that make you hate
Cessna 152s? Do you thereafter criticize Cessna 152s as not being "real
aircraft"?

There are groups for games and simulation, and if discussing MSFS was MX's
real motive, that's where he would be.

Simulation discussions normally take place in the context of what is being
simulated, not in venues that address only the program (unless the topic is
truly program issues). That's what simulation is all about.

BeechSundowner writes:

Imagine you in seat 20F. The plane you are in is inbound for LAX.
The plane is descending through 25000 feet. Sudden lurch in the
plane, due to the front row passengers (AKA pilot and copilot) keels
over dead.

Since the aircraft is on autopilot, there will be no lurch, unless CWS or CWP
are enabled by control movements (depends on the aircraft).

It doesn't work like you see in the movies, nor does it work like a Sundowner,
for that matter (I presume this is the aircraft with which you are familiar).

Flight attendant calls into the cockpit, plane is still on the descent
profile and no answer. FA, decides it's an emergency, beats the
living daylights out fo the cockpit door to gain access (after all
it's locked from the inside) finds the bodies.

Depending on jurisdiction and airline and aircraft, there may be a digital
code that the lead FA can enter to open the door to the cockpit.

You raise your hand, the FA wisks you in the front seat, you now
descending through 10000 feet. Remember, jets don't descent at the
cozy rate of 500 fpm.

They also don't descend below the altitude set on the MCP. The descent will
stop at the altitude cleared by ATC.

You really think you are going to have enough time to figure out how
to get the headset on, find the button to contact ATC, MOVE the bodies
out of your way to climb into the left or right seat, and then ATC is
going to have time to find someone to walk you through the complicated
FMC procedures before you buy the farm?

Absolutely. And the FMC need not necessarily even be used, since it's
possible to follow vectors and configure the aircraft for landing without it.

Of course, pilot incapacitation specifically during descent is even less
likely than pilot incapacitation in general.

There is no reset button, and
autoland is something that wouldn't be set on a descent profile for an
approach I don't think?????

As I've said, this isn't a Sundowner.

It's pretty straightforward to configure most airliners for autoland. It can
be done by following a few simple instructions. Interaction with the FMC may
or may not be required.

The aircraft can be partially configured as soon as a runway is assigned.
This would likely occur after contact with approach controllers. If it isn't
already in place when the pilots are incapacitated, it's easy to enter.

Please think of the human adrenalin factor. Iceman we are not.....

Adrenalin is not a problem.

The reality is that even as a private pilot, I seriously doubt that I
would be able to find the right knobs to twist in the vast array of
the digitalized world that would sit in front of me.

I agree. But you could find them easily with a bit of help from someone over
the radio.

I'm not a pilot, but I could probably find the knobs much more easily than
you, since I'm actually familiar with the cockpits of several airliners.

The stuff is massive to comprehend under a simulated environment
without the danger of buying the farm.

No, it's not, at least for someone of normal intelligence.

You vastly overestimate the difficulty of flying, particularly flying that
involves the manipulation of systems rather than yoke and rudder. Landing an
airliner is a matter of procedures (particularly autolanding) rather than
seat-of-the-pants barnstorming.

To expect somebody like myself
who does fly a SE plane who never set foot in the cockpit of a
commercial jet to be able to follow programming instructions for the
FMC and set it up for autoladning just is not realistic.

I agree, since it sounds like you've never studied it at all, and it certainly
doesn't work like the tiny little plane that you fly.

But, hopefully, you could follow instructions and land the airliner, just like
anyone else. You would not need any previous experience with flying, just the
ability to do as you are told. If you attempted to hand-fly the airplane on
the mistaken assumption that your limited experience with a tiny plane would
enable you to do this, however, you might get into trouble.

Yeah, I am sitting at the comforts of my computer, I study day in and
day out of the procedures of a 767 FMC, the above scenario pans out.
You don't think a person wouldn't have a brain fart due to the
adrenalin factor from the chaos developing behind you from the
passengers and yourself saying WTF do I do next?

No, I don't think so, not at all. People yell and scream in the movies; most
people aren't like that in real life, in emergency situations (in any group
there might be a screamer, but that's normally an exception to the rule).

I can say with experience and working with the Garmin 430 simulator on
my computer and using the Garmin 430 in my plane, that the simulator
isn't the real deal.

What are the differences? Garmin's simulators work just like the real
thing--that's the whole idea.

Flying in my plane, scanning my instruments IN IMC, doing all I can to
reduce the movement of my head to tune my 430 is not the same as
clicking a mouse on my simulator. Is it the big knob or little knob,
Is it the knob on the right or is it the knob on the left. Little
knob, what do you mean little knob, I see bunches of knobs. what page
is the approach plate on, is it the big knob or little knob. Oh yeah,
still need to scan my instruments to stay upright. Dang it, can't
pull the manual out, I am flying a plane!

What does this have to do with landing an airliner?

MSFS will NEVER simulate the real deal of push, pulling, turning,
tuning ir twisting any aircraft avionics.

It doesn't have to. Everyone today has years of experience in turning knobs
and manipulating other controls. A non-pilot wouldn't have experience in
operating flight controls of an airliner, but fortunately that would not be
required.

It doesn't simulate
reaching across the panel, holding the plane upright (remember, I have
to scan my instruments to remain upright, can't assume autopilot will
do that for you!!)

That might be true in your tiny plane, but rest assured, in an airliner, the
autopilot will indeed maintain level flight, and much, much more.

As I have posted many, many times, and I have used MSFS X.

With which add-ons?

Flying an approach on the computer just doesn't simulate the physical
sensations of IMC.

You don't need physical sensations. In fact, you're supposed to ignore
physical sensations in IMC.

Not sure if you ever been in IMC, not even sure if you are a
pilot, but if you never been in IMC, please talk to a IA rated pilot
and ask him to take you up. You will never look at a cloud the same
way.

I've been in IMC in aircraft many times. It didn't change my perspective on
clouds.

Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:

Wrong, X-Plane is not part of any flight simulator certified by the FAA.

It is part of a Personal Computer-based Aviation Training Device, which
is something else entirely.

No, it's not something else at all. It's a simulator. All training devices
are simulators.

If you are going to post to a real aviation group instead of a sim group,
at least learn the language.

A PCATD is not a flight simulator.


--
Jim Pennino

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Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:

Wrong again as apparently you don't know what the term "flight simulator"
means.

Who is constrained to abide by FAA rules, exactly?

Look it up.


--
Jim Pennino

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