For Keith Willshaw...

In article ,
on 14 Jun 2004 05:28:55 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

The words of a man that failed in his duty and would not admit it.

Why, when Adm Halsey sailed earlier that week and informed Adm Kimmel that
he intended to shoot down or sink any Japanese ships or aircraft he might
encounter on his way to and from Wake Is.
Did Adm Halsey have intel that his boss did not posses ?
No, Adm Halsey could see the signs, that Adm Kimmel refused to see them and
to head those warnings he recieved only reinforce the Navies decision to
fire

Read the transcripts of the one of the congressional meetings.(I posted the
link)

I have read them, apparently in greater detail than you have.
Can you answer why Adm. Halsey informed his boss, Adm Kimmel of his
intentions on sailing from PH the week prior to 7 December ?



According to current knowledge it is without any doubt clear that that
Washington withhold the information they knew from Hawaii.

No, there isn't.


There is a general agreement here.differences start after this point according
to government or researchers backing gov't view there is no conspiracy here
only honest mistakes,officials did not realize the importance of deciphered
messages.

No, there isn't.

Thats a big lie officials who made honest mistakes do try to hide the existence
of phone conversation with British PM lust before Pearl Harbor attack.
Truth is not only US had prior knowledge of Pearl Harbor attack but also
British.

But what about the Dutch ?
Did they know ?



--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

I have read them, apparently in greater detail than you have.
Can you answer why Adm. Halsey informed his boss, Adm Kimmel of his
intentions on sailing from PH the week prior to 7 December ?

Actualy Kimmel sent 46 warships to open sea to the safety in late November
without notifying Washington.
When White house learned of Kimmels move Washington ordered all ships to return
to the base.
Battleships and their crews were expendable and their intended role was playing
sitting ducks.
For much more information please check out:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/20...no12_facts.htm

But what about the Dutch ?
Did they know ?

Yes.They knew too,check out the above link

No, there isn't.


The current official position of US gov't is as follows:
"Historical records do not establish convincingly that President
Roosevelt,Gen.Marshall and others in Washington "deliberately" witheld
information from Adm.Kimmel and Gen.Short as part of a plan or conspitacy to
expose Pearl Harbor to attack in order to thrust America into the war".

This diplomatic wording says in plain English:Yes information were witheld from
them ,but not deliberately.

This the limit that ANY government in this world could accept.
As you probably know if government,any government,accepts killing of its own
sailors and soldiers for political goals,members of any gov't might face firing
squad.

A 70+ year old book ?
Sure, I have time to find a copy.

Much better than new books.

A fire in a coal bunker adjacent to one of the powder magazines.

Exact cause of explosion is still not known,offical 1898 version was a spanish
mine !.
One thing is sure it was no accident and Spanians had nothing to do with it.
Maybe Aliens masquarading as Spanians did it.

Lured ?
Have you actually done any reading of the events ?
Perhaps you might try reading some of the Japanese accounts.
What phone conversation ?
There being no evidence....

Really,you did not even read hearing transcripts carefully

A bunch of fanatics

Surely fanatics,but the fanatics that four intel agencies,including our
own,closely followed.
(BTW there is no intel gaps prior to 9/11)

Do you hear the helocopters yet ?


Not yet but have you ever heard the name "Melody" and its ECM/ESM capabilities?

Are you sure ?

Pretty sure

Cheers.

"Denyav" wrote in message
...

The current official position of US gov't is as follows:
"Historical records do not establish convincingly that President
Roosevelt,Gen.Marshall and others in Washington "deliberately" witheld
information from Adm.Kimmel and Gen.Short as part of a plan or conspitacy
to
expose Pearl Harbor to attack in order to thrust America into the war".

This diplomatic wording says in plain English:Yes information were witheld
from
them ,but not deliberately.

English is your second language, isn't it.

Poor Den, still making stuff up.

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
What the conspiroloons can never manage to explain is why the attack was
allowed to happen, the USA could have put up a heavy CAP, manned all AA
guns
and have already flown off a major counterstrike and still would have
been
at war as the attack came in, the only difference would have been in the
phrasing of the announcement and the fact that the US military would have
come out of it looking good.

Such an activity would deter Japanese from making the attack.

How?

You say the US knew and where when the attack was due, all they needed to do
was prep the a/c the night before and launch 30 mins before the attack, plus
wake the sailors up early and have them man the AA guns.

Reality is not your friend, is it?

The goal of FDR (and Churchill) was not to deter attack but lure Japan to
attack US so that the domestic opposition to US participation could be
overcome.

You haven't addressed why they couldn't defeat the attack yet, also you
havent explained how getting into a different war with Japan helps the USA
get into a war against Germany (or was Hitler in on the big plan too?).

Thats the reason why Washington gradually reduced the information sent to
Honolulu beginning from July 1941.
In other words Washington had a political goal and blindfolded Honolulu to
achieve this goal.

By sending a war warning?


A simple, "this morning at aprox 0600hrs the Japanese navy attacked Pearl
Harbour without warning, this infamous attack was defeated by the
courageous
actions of our Army and Navy, the United States is now at war" would have
done nicely.

It could easily be done,but it would not help FDR and Churchill as much as
shock and awe created by Japanese "surprise" attack.


So being IN a war by defeating a surprise attack helps your objective of
being IN a war less than being IN a war by not defeating a surprise attack
how?

Go to Http://www.ukan.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm
and read the testimony of Capt.Beach.

In Plain English he says basically:
"The goal justifies the methods used to achive the goal"

Again you feel the need to invent what people are saying.

You really should seek medical help.

English is your second language, isn't it.

Poor Den, still making stuff up.


I think everbody who can read government statement can understant its meaning
easily,illiterates different story of course.

Denyav wrote in message ...
Ah yes the USA is the source of all evil, but wait a moment, that means
there will be a disinformation campaign about this, one of the best ways
to hide this is to accuse the USA of being the source of all evil, since
that obscures the "real" events.

US is NOT the sole source of all evil,others tried and still try similar
things,for example Reichstag fire,but the difference is that the US was and is
worlds #1 in this issue by a big margin.

To prove this absurd claim the movie Pearl Harbor is cited as
proof, the actions of a fictional character in a work of fiction.

Nice auto repeat of my words, helps break them up.

It is blindingly obvious when you use this sort of logic

Who

hide this is to accuse the USA of being the source of all evil, since
that obscures the "real" events.

It is blindingly obvious when you use this sort of logic

Lets go back,for example,to the year 1898.

What was the non "real" event?
1)Sinking of USS Maine
2)Using the event Nr.1 as a batttle cry to get popular support for an empire
building war
3)Emerging from Spanish-American war as a major power.

You forgot the fact the US did not emerge from the Spanish American
war as a major power in military terms, it lacked the navy.

You forgot item 4) the conspiracy theory around the start of the war
and the claims the Maine was deliberately sabotaged by the US.
The non real event.

You see the fact the IJN attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941 is known
and understood. The added "facts" of a conspiracy are the
contributions of people who cannot cope with reality. Go on, fight
the everlasting conspiracy, award yourself medals for fighting the
terrifying enemy, all in complete safety, since there is nothing to
fight, but go on murdering the truth for personal gain. Win the non
real event, since no one else is competing.

enyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the
heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to
try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely
absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims.

Actually you dont need to be on anybodys payroll, 99,99 % of information is
available to public if you know how to find them.

Yes folks, understand, look for your facts in Hollywood movies, just
add the words you want to historical documents and so on. It is
quite simple, since unwelcome reality can be wished away just
decide the preferred outcome and adjust the preferred facts
accordingly.

Denyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the
heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to
try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely
absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims.

By the way note below the talk is all about the missing evidence,
but we are told 99.99% is available.

Simple isn't it, remember no proof is absolute proof, truth must pass
the "I like it" test and so on.

Yeah right,for example if White House destroys phone records there is no proof
that such calls were made unless somebody on other side of Atlantic
declassifies their own records.
But you can still control damage by asserting that they were lost accidentally.

Note by the way this seems to have suddenly appeared, and just
ignore the various phone company records as well. Both British
and American.

Deleted text, on the Congressional moves,

"
http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/cpqu...el=TOC_545749&

Go look up the other items included, the Indianapolis sinking and
the waiver on time limits for decorations. "

And the request was to
advance the ranks at which Kimmel and Short were retired at.

Real radical policy change stuff.

Check out hearing transcripts:
Http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm
Accusations aimed at the power center of US government not at periphery.

By the way the claim trying to be defended is the idea Kimmel hurled
such accusations at FDR etc. Instead we have the family members
putting the best case forward as to why Washington deserves some
of the blame.

The transcript indicates the accusations were the usual ones, the
people in Washington made the errors (not the conspiracy) and
the people in Pearl paid the price. Note the transcript is not about
prior knowledge of the attack, only the blame game afterwards.
However when you want to invent fiction just change this to
conspiracy accusations.

By the way in the above text Professor Gannon claims 1,000 PBY
patrol planes were sent to the British pre Pearl Harbor when he
calculates Pearl needed 200 for all round patrols but only had 49.
The British (meaning RAF, RCAF. RNZAF and RAAF) received
somewhere around 3/4 of this figure for the entire war.

The US produced a whole 410 Patrol bombers in 1941, up from
34 in 1940, 22 Martin Mariners (PBM), 6 Consolidated Coranados
(PB2Y) and 416 Catalinas (PBY) 1940 to 1941. The PBY had been
in production pre war, with around 200 delivered by the end of 1939.

Of course you need to remove from the totals the 41 patrol bombers
delivered in December 1941 and probably the 54 delivered in October
and November 1941 as not being available to sent to Hawaii in time.
Also noting the pre war deliveries, starting in 1936, were lower powered
versions, 1,800 to 2,000 HP versus 2,400 for the 1940 on versions

So we have around 600 patrol bombers with the necessary range built
and available to the USN and everyone else, less the attrition of normal
flying, 200 of which are needed for Pearl Harbor. Presumably then over
200 are needed for the Philippines, then comes the U-boat threat to the
US east coast plus Panama then comes the British requirement. The
British are useful, they give feedback on actual combat operations. Do
not forget aircraft for training operations as well plus the inevitable losses.

Kimmel is allowed "lack of resources" but Washington is not. Nice use
of logic.

So what's that say 600 aircraft, less around 1/2 for obsolete types, for
training and attrition, and we have 300 suitable aircraft. Pearl wants
200, the Philippines wants more, the east coast wants some, the
British want some, the training system wants more so it can up the
training rate and so on.

Pearl Harbor was given 49 aircraft, enough to continuously cover an
arc of 90 degrees according to Professor Gannon, or the approaches
from the Japanese mandated islands. How many were actually flying
such searches on the 5th, 6th and 7th?

The deleted claim was the Naval Board of Inquiry report was never
made public. This has to be ignored, since we know the outcome.

We know that was the only panel that allowed Kimmel to defend himself,present
his own case and evidences.

It was an inquiry not a trial. And I note the change of subject, from
the claims made about the inquiry to the procedures it followed.

We also know after considering presented evidences Court came to conclusion
that Kimmel should be exonorated.

The inquiry released its findings in August 1945 according to the supplied
URL.

But we dont know the actual evidences.

Presumably this means you have not bothered to look it up, it was not
in the Pearl Harbor movie.

We also dont know why Forrestal and King overrode court decision despite the
evidence.

Gone looking for this evidence? Just jump to conspiracy theory, instead
of something like they decided it looked like the Navy was being kind to
its own.

Deleted text,

"Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was
that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from
the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last
Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There
was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen."

On claims the inquiries were rigged,

"I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let
off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair."

On using Pearl Harbor the movie as a source,

"I see "based on real characters", and I presume the transcripts of these
claimed conversations are available? I presume you have traced the
people the pilots and nurse were

Actually the movie completely ignored the role British intelligence which was
far more capable than US at that time.

Ah yes the movie Pearl Harbor is your guide to US intelligence
actions in 1941, but wait, there is more, since the movie is a joke
on this point the need is to imply the British did it. Just ignore the
way the British had more pressing matters on their hands, that
the US was leading the way against Japanese diplomatic traffic
and the British and US were sharing IJN code recovery work.
So what one knew the other did as well.

Please tell us what court Kimmel was supposed to be in.

Kimmel was in the court which he supposed to be in.This court "exhonorated"
Kimmel but the decision of Court which Kimmel supposed to be in,was overturned
by Forrestal-King duo.

Yes folks, Kimmel was where he should be, no matter where you
go, there you are.

Note by the way the attempt to paint the inquiry as the absolutely right
result, despite claiming not to have seen the evidence presented to it.
The USN is the straight organisation, despite the fact it would have
been doing the decoding of those wonder messages, it is the one
that holds the "truth", everything else is wrong. The conspiracy does
not apply to the naval inquiry, it could never have been rigged of
course, it has the "right" result, so everything else was rigged.

What did the inquiry clear Kimmel of, dereliction of duty, lack of
judgement?

Standard conspiracy stuff, the right answer is out there, somewhere,
pick your preferred outcome.

Previously before the next text was another standard claim about
conspiracies, as usual the claim has to be deleted and the subject changed.

If Kimmel was that psychic, describing 2001, he had no need for warnings,
his telepathy should have been enough.

Kimmel surely was not a physic but US PSYOPs getting more and more
like reruns of the same movie.

Translation Denyav is in flashback mode.

By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded
the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and
the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to

deleted text,

"enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just
before the attack went in."

Even tough Manila received warnings that Honolulu never received,
MacArthur got defeated and humiliated and lost much more men and
equipment than Kimmel and Short.

I like this, especially since I posted text showing how the War Warning
messages were the same around the Pacific. And MacArthur certainly
did not lose more men and equipment that the people in Hawaii in the
opening day of the war.

What I really like is the duck, unable to answer the text, so change the
subject.

"By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded
the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and
the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to
enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just
before the attack went in."

I wonder why nobody demoted him. I wonder

Try and read history, it provides answers like, 1) too far away to know
exactly what was going on, 2) MacArthur controlling much of the
information flow, 3) The low expectations about holding the Philippines,
4) The reality moving against MacArthur would provoke a reaction in
Washington, being seen as an attempt by FDR to rid himself of an
unwanted General.

Deleted text,

It would be nice to know the source of the claimed Kimmel words, it
seems his lifetime's output is being searched for any claim he made,
no proof offered.

Remarkable line being run, the US is the source of all evil but the US
is so good, so amazing, it cannot be defeated, only betrayed from
within. No one can launch an unexpected attack on the US, it sees
and knows all, I must ask the US where my favourite pen has ended up.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

"L'acrobat" wrote in message
...

"Denyav" wrote in message
...

The current official position of US gov't is as follows:
"Historical records do not establish convincingly that President
Roosevelt,Gen.Marshall and others in Washington "deliberately" witheld
information from Adm.Kimmel and Gen.Short as part of a plan or
conspitacy
to
expose Pearl Harbor to attack in order to thrust America into the war".

This diplomatic wording says in plain English:Yes information were
witheld
from
them ,but not deliberately.

English is your second language, isn't it.

Poor Den, still making stuff up.

Consider, the diplomatic warning wasn't in English, plain or otherwise.

You say the US knew and where when the attack was due, all they needed to do
was prep the a/c the night before and launch 30 mins before the attack, plus
wake the sailors up early and have them man the AA guns.

First of all FDR or US did not want to deter japanase or save US ships in
Harbor,what FDR wanted was a spectacular event to schock and awe the Nation.
The first warning of Pearl Harbor attack did not came before hours,days or
weeks before the attack,it came almost one year before attack.
1)On January 27,1941 US Ambassador to Japan ,Joseph Grew sent following message
to Washington:
"Peruvian minister has informed one my staff that he has heard from many
sources,including a Japanase source,that in the event of trouble breaking out
between US and Japan,the Japanase intended to make a surprise attack aganist
Pearl Harbor with all their strength"

Again the date of above message is Jan,27,1941.

2)Later Congressman M.Dies wrote the following:
"Early in 1941 the Dies committee came into possesion of a strategic map which
gave clear proof of intentions of the japanese to make an assault on Pearl
Harbor.The strategic map was prepared by the Japanase Imperial Intelligence
dept.
As soon as I received rhe document I telephoned Secretary of State Cordell Hull
and told him what I had.Secretary Hull directed me not to let anyone know about
map and stated that he would call me as soon as he talked to President
Roosevelt.In about an hour he telephoned to say that he had talked to Roosevelt
and they agreed that it would be very serious if any information concerning
this map reached the news services.I told him it was a grave responsibility to
withold such vital information from the public.TheSecretary assured me the he
and Roosevelt considered essential to national defense"

3)Dusko Popov was a British double agent.
In the summer of 1941 Nazis ordered him to Hawai to make a detailed study of PH
naval base and its nearby airfields.
He deduced that his mission betokened a surprise attack by japanase.In Aug.1941
he reported this to FBI in New York.
Later Hoover bitterly recalled that he had provided Popovs warning abour Pearl
Harbor to FDR but that Roosevelt told him not to pass the information any
further and to just leave in in his ,Presidents,hands"

4)Kilso Haan received definite information from Korean underground that the
Japanese were planning to attack Hawai "before Christmas".Haan contacted Iowa
Senator Gillette and convinced him that information had merit.
Sen.Gillette briefed FDR , but FDR said only"it would be looked into"
5)The Dutch Army in Java on Dec.4 decoded a dispatch from Tokyo to Japan
Embassy in Bangkok, forecasting attack on four locations including Hawai.The
Dutch passed information to US Brig.Gen Thorpe.Thorpe sent total 4 urgent
warning messages to Washington,to last one directly to the desk of Marshalls
intel chief.Washington in return ordered Thorpe not send warning messages
anymore.
Col.Weiijerman,Dutch military attache in Washington,also delivered warning
message to Marshalls staff in person.
6)On Nov,29 Cordell Hull met with the journalist J.Leib and handed him some
japanese intercepts about Pearl Harbor and told him that Japanase were planning
the base and that FDR planned to let it happen.
Leib promised to keep Hulls name out of story and contacted UP Washington chief
Wilson and told him the details without giving the name of his source.
Wilson found story ludicrious and refused to run it but Leib managed to get and
urgent version onto UPs foreign service.


Reality is not your friend, is it?

Is reality your friend?

You haven't addressed why they couldn't defeat the attack yet, also you
havent explained how getting into a different war with Japan helps the USA
get into a war against Germany (or was Hitler in on the big plan too?).


Washington was not interested in defeating attack,much less preventing it.

By sending a war warning?

War warning ?,you make me laugh,unfortunately Kimmel was not under Dutch
command.

Again you feel the need to invent what people are saying.

You really should seek medical help.

I think the people who made Maine Incident (unfortunately too late),Pearl
Harbor (again unfortunately too late) and 9/11 should seek,no not medical
help,but legal help.

To prove this absurd claim the movie Pearl Harbor is cited as
proof, the actions of a fictional character in a work of fiction.


Actually the reality is much worse than movie makers could even imagine.

Do you know why Kimmels predecessor was relieved of command and replaced by
Kimmel?

The architect of FDRs Japan &Pearl Harbor game plan was McCollum and McCollum
was also,what a surprise !!,head of navy intelligence unit responsible IJN
dispatches.
Thats the reason why movies mention mostly japanase diplomatic dispatches.
You forgot the fact the US did not emerge from the Spanish American
war as a major power in military terms, it lacked the navy.

It was turning point,with Spanish war USN stopped acting like a littorial navy
and started to act like an imperial navy.


ope with reality. Go on, fight
the everlasting conspiracy, award yourself medals for fighting the
terrifying enemy, all in complete safety, since there is nothing to
fight, but go on murdering the truth for personal gain. Win the non
real event, since no one else is competing.

Laws alone cannot deter crooks,if you are not able or willing to
catch,prosecute and convict them,no crook will be deterred by the laws written
in books.
In same token,induviduals who plan vicious acts aganist their own people will
not be deterred if the people who planned similar acts in the past could go
free or still worse,regarded as Statesmen.