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#41
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Leading Turns With Rudder
I used to briefly get absolute beginners to turn using aileron with their
feet off the pedals while I surruptitiously did the ruddery bits and then, once they'd grasped the fact that banking was the reason the glider turned, get them to use both together. Teaching rudder first to ab initios is tantamount to a criminal offence in my opinion. |
#42
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Leading Turns With Rudder
On Jul 23, 10:56*am, Z Goudie wrote:
I used to briefly get absolute beginners to turn using aileron with their feet off the pedals while I surruptitiously did the ruddery bits and then, once they'd grasped the fact that banking was the reason the glider turned, get them to use both together. There was nothing secret about the back seat chap working the rudders while I did the stick on my first flight. Teaching rudder first to ab initios is tantamount to a criminal offence in my opinion. |
#43
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Leading Turns With Rudder
For what it is worth - we teach sequentially (in South Africa) the primary effects of controls.
So - for ab-initios it is - First control - stick forward and back for speed control. Instructor worries about all the rest (Aileron, airbrakes and rudder). Student ignores string, and direction. Once bloggs has mastered that the primary effect of the elevators is to control speed, we move on to ailerons Second control - learn to turn the aircraft with aileron - instructor now only controlling rudder and airbrakes. Student wories about speed and learns to control direction. Stringf stays where it should be because the instructor is doint it. Once the student has this one sorted we let him / her put feet on rudders and start teaching co-ordination. Once that is pretty well sorted the airbrakes are an easy logical next step. Then we start on permutations like slips and spins and all those other complications. Works pretty well - when student gets confused about "what does this control do?" - primacy takes over and they tend to do appropriate things more often. In my opinion - Anyone who teaches by rote and/or a method that will induce unco-ordinated turns as the primary memory is dangerous. For what it is worth I learned this way on a Bergfalke 2/55 - in the gliding encyclopaedia, the definition of "adverse yaw" says - refer to "Bergfalke". It is notoriously under ruddered and hard to co-ordinate. I certainly learned to use the rudder, and on almost every conversion since have found myself having to back off on the rudder. But it is relatively instinctive to apply the - "feet make the string straight" rule. Student learns to make appropriate control inputs to balance the aircraft, not some set of rules. That brings images of the Prussian officer in those magnificent men in their flying machines to mind... Z Goudie wrote: I used to briefly get absolute beginners to turn using aileron with their feet off the pedals while I surruptitiously did the ruddery bits and then, once they'd grasped the fact that banking was the reason the glider turned, get them to use both together. Teaching rudder first to ab initios is tantamount to a criminal offence in my opinion. |
#44
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Leading Turns With Rudder
At 20:16 22 July 2008, Brian wrote:
I find the instructing to "lead with the rudder" in many gliders is just anticiping the adverse yaw and produces a more coordinated turn, especially with new students. My initial reaction to this thread that make an iron-clad rule to "always lead with the rudder" wasn't very bright. I agree with the folks who have said - do whatever it takes to keep the turn coordinated. And of course this is going to vary from glider to glider. Each type is different. Brian makes another good point here, though, when it comes to instructing (I'm not an instructor, and have no desire to be one - I couldn't take the excitement). Each student is different, so you do whatever it takes to get the message across. They'll figure it out eventually. Jim Beckman |
#45
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Leading Turns With Rudder
On the other hand, I know plenty of pilots who fly perfectly coordinated
turns, but who are absolutely cr@p cross-country and competition pilots. Del Copeland At 07:26 23 July 2008, Jim White wrote: Nonsense...if you don't fly the glider efficiently you won't climb or glide well and you certainly won't win. Accurate flying is fundamental to XC speed. At 06:11 23 July 2008, Derek Copeland wrote: Jim, what's this got to do with the argument? A BGA National Coach said of one top UK competition glider pilot "The only time the slip ball is ever in the middle is as it crashes from one side to the other!" Top competition pilots are very good at knowing WHERE to fly to find the best lift and do not necessarily have to have perfect handling skills. Del Copeland |
#46
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Leading Turns With Rudder
On Jul 23, 5:13*am, Bruce wrote:
For what it is worth - we teach sequentially (in South Africa) the primary effects of controls. I don't know if what you wrote is actually what you teach, but what you wrote does not describe the primary effects of the controls, at least not as I was taught. Elevator - primary effect pitch attitude change, secondary effect speed change Aileron - primary effect roll attitude change, secondary effect adverse yaw Rudder - primary effect yaw attitude change, secondary effect roll Andy |
#47
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Leading Turns With Rudder
Jim, we are not talking about cross country flying but about entering,
maintaining and exiting a turn as smoothly as possible. With 10000 launches 99% from a winch I would suggest that my "scratching" credentials are pretty good. If you can thermal away a T31 or any other glider come to that, from 500ft on a regular basis you have to be efficient. Most cross countrys start from a aerotow into the moronosphere. Of course competition pilots have to fly accurately, or fit a turbo, but they are not necessarily the best low down scratching pilots. Just because 80% of the pilots in the UK are not competition pilots dones not make them any less skilled, and to suggest otherwise is an insult. At 07:26 23 July 2008, Jim White wrote: Nonsense...if you don't fly the glider efficiently you won't climb or glide well and you certainly won't win. Accurate flying is fundamental to XC speed. btw Don, the W in ASW is Waibel. duh At 06:11 23 July 2008, Derek Copeland wrote: Jim, what's this got to do with argument? A BGA National Coach said of one top UK competition glider pilot "The only time the slip ball is ever in the middle is as it crashes from one side to the other!" Top competition pilots are very good at knowing WHERE to fly to find the best lift and do not necessarily have to have perfect handling skills. Del Copeland |
#48
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Leading Turns With Rudder
At 13:17 23 July 2008, Andy wrote:
On Jul 23, 5:13=A0am, Bruce wrote: For what it is worth - we teach sequentially (in South Africa) the primar= y effects of controls. I don't know if what you wrote is actually what you teach, but what you wrote does not describe the primary effects of the controls, at least not as I was taught. Elevator - primary effect pitch attitude change, secondary effect speed change Aileron - primary effect roll attitude change, secondary effect adverse yaw Rudder - primary effect yaw attitude change, secondary effect roll Andy The primary effect of elevator is to change the pitch attitude. There is no true secondary effect. The primary effect of aileron is roll, the secondary effect is yaw IN THE DIRECTION OF THE AILERON APPLICATION, resulting in a spiral dive. In other words if you keep aileron applied to the right the aircraft will roll right and then yaw right. Adverse yaw is not the secondary effect. Any adverse yaw present with the application of the aileron will be cancelled out when the glider slips to the right. Rudder is correct. The result is a spiral dive. |
#49
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Leading Turns With Rudder
"sisu1a" wrote in message ... On Jul 22, 4:44 am, wrote: On Jul 21, 9:08 pm, sisu1a wrote: I feel compelled at this point to add that this guy does not promote stomping the rudder or other outwardly unsafe flying habits and is absolutely fanatical about keeping the string straight, to the point of obnoxiousness. He would not accept my explanation of mildly slipping during thermaling ala' Holighaus/Johnson on a flight last year, outright rejecting it on principal (he was sure I read the article wrong or remembered it incorrectly). I also want to add that my concern is geared toward what ab-initio students should or should not be taught, as it is very hard to unlearn something, no matter how wrong. As far as I understand the human brain, it will most likely revert to these early lessons when/if a 'situation' arises and stress levels are very high. I certainly don't think he should have his ticket yanked by any means, I just have my own reservations about the soundness of *possibly* instilling reflexes into people that can potentially be dangerous if reverted to at an inopportune moment. This forum seems like a good place for this discussion, to see how others more qualified than I weigh in on the subject before making it a campaign and I thank everyone thus far for their thoughtful responses. -Paul Paul -- I can't reconcile these statements and your OP. How does one teach applying rudder "first, as it's own control movement" and yet be absolutely fanatical about keeping the yaw string centered? Well, it makes instruction with him about as much fun as it sounds (assuming your not a hapless student that doesn't know better and would never stand up to his authority which BTW is very authoritative, complete w/yelling tendencies but I digress...). It should be noted that he is using a 2-33 (our other trainer is an L-13 Blanik, which he is convinced it is awful for instruction compared to the wonderful 2-33...) to push this technique, which is not exactly snappy in ANY responses so I doubt the string is getting too far in most of the time. 95% of the instruction he does is with newbies who won't talk back, so your point is probably never brought up (the rest of the folks just grit their teeth, bite their tongue and finish their BFR ASAP). Recapping, my real concern of this does not come from how the 2-33 specifically likes/dislikes it. My concern comes from building this technique by rote as a reflex in students because it translates poorly to most other gliders, and seems like it could potentially lead to disaster down the road, from my limited perspective. Honest, this stuff actually gets written on a board and drilled into students heads, I'm not making this up. -Paul (trying to keep descriptions as generic as possible because I DON'T want to call him out) Well, Paul--- Have you personally been trained by this instructor, or is this second hand "distilled" information. Perhaps the full instruction is more complete---or maybe not. The art of instruction is in learning the essence of the thing to be taught, then breaking it down into steps so it can be taught. What is actually being taught is (or should be), coordinated turns. This does not mean apply the same rudder and aileron movement at the same time, or the same control pressures at the same time. It means do what it takes to get the effect desired-i.e. crisp, string centered, constant airspeed turn. How that is to be done varies from aircraft to aircraft and from airspeed to other airspeed. If the student learns first what a coordinated turn is and is not, then everything else falls into place, and the law of primacy will prevail in a pinch. Hartley Falbaum USA |
#50
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Leading Turns With Rudder
Jim White wrote:
Nonsense...if you don't fly the glider efficiently you won't climb or glide well and you certainly won't win. Accurate flying is fundamental to XC speed. My experience with losing in contests is being the the right place at the right time is fundamental to XC speed. I never wished I'd flown more efficiently! I'm guessing you haven't flown in many contests or talked to the winners enough. Flying the glider well is about safety, not going fast. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly * Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4 * New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org |
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