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Future Club Training Gliders



 
 
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  #11  
Old September 15th 10, 06:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Grider Pirate
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Posts: 238
Default Future Club Training Gliders

On Sep 14, 10:09*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sep 14, 9:48*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:





On Sep 14, 7:49*pm, ray conlon wrote:


On Sep 14, 7:13*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:


I just talked to John Murray about other stuff, and he mentioned that
ASK 21 are actually remarkably easy to get right now. Our club
(chicago glider club) just bought a new ASK21, and it's a joy both to
fly and teach in.


John Cochrane


Get the Schweizers to bring back the 2-33's, the best BASIC trainer
ever built....


Yeah, and the Air Force is going to replace it's T-38s with AT-6s.
Sorry, but the 2-33 is simply not the right trainer anymore (if it
ever was, considering that it postdates the Blanik and is a
contemporary of the sweet little ASK-13!). *We need to attract people
to this sport, not drive them away screaming (or laughing,,,)


Kirk


Kirk, well said.

ASK-21 -- great solid and safe ship from a proven manufacturer capable
of supporting their fleet. Then get pilots into the Duos and DG-1000S
class club machines as soon as possible and you'll have more of a
chance of keeping them in the sport. At least give them lots of
chances early on to see what a high performance glider can do.

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I am really curious. How many of you got into soaring with no prior
interest in flying? I wanted to fly since I was about 4 years old.
When I was 47, I finally got the chance, and almost all my lessons
were in a 2-33. Frankly I don't think it would have mattered to me
WHAT the club had to fly. I just wanted to be in the air.
Ads
  #12  
Old September 15th 10, 06:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Posts: 2,290
Default Future Club Training Gliders

On Sep 14, 10:30*pm, Grider Pirate wrote:
On Sep 14, 10:09*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:



On Sep 14, 9:48*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:


On Sep 14, 7:49*pm, ray conlon wrote:


On Sep 14, 7:13*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:


I just talked to John Murray about other stuff, and he mentioned that
ASK 21 are actually remarkably easy to get right now. Our club
(chicago glider club) just bought a new ASK21, and it's a joy both to
fly and teach in.


John Cochrane


Get the Schweizers to bring back the 2-33's, the best BASIC trainer
ever built....


Yeah, and the Air Force is going to replace it's T-38s with AT-6s.
Sorry, but the 2-33 is simply not the right trainer anymore (if it
ever was, considering that it postdates the Blanik and is a
contemporary of the sweet little ASK-13!). *We need to attract people
to this sport, not drive them away screaming (or laughing,,,)


Kirk


Kirk, well said.


ASK-21 -- great solid and safe ship from a proven manufacturer capable
of supporting their fleet. Then get pilots into the Duos and DG-1000S
class club machines as soon as possible and you'll have more of a
chance of keeping them in the sport. At least give them lots of
chances early on to see what a high performance glider can do.


Darryl- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


I am really curious. *How many of you got into soaring with no prior
interest in flying? *I wanted to fly since I was about 4 years old.
When I was 47, I finally got the chance, and almost all my lessons
were in a 2-33. *Frankly I don't think it would have mattered to me
WHAT the club had to fly. I just wanted to be in the air.


I got a power ticket at 17. Lost interest in my late-twenties, but
travel and living overseas for work was a part of that. Took a XC ride
in a Duo in my early forties. Yehow..... OK being in the air is great,
but after playing in a Duo I had no interest in flying a sardine can/
brick and that would not have encouraged me in the slightest to get a
glider rating. I had flown in a L13 as a teenager and thought the
Cessna 172 I flew was more interesting. That Duo ride lead to
suffering in a 2-32 to get my ticket so I could get back to the glass
stuff... club Grob, Pegasus, DG-1000S. And very quickly my own DG-303
and now ASH-26E.

Darryl

  #13  
Old September 15th 10, 07:38 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Morgan[_2_]
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Posts: 163
Default Future Club Training Gliders

I am really curious. *How many of you got into soaring with no prior
interest in flying? *I wanted to fly since I was about 4 years old.
When I was 47, I finally got the chance, and almost all my lessons
were in a 2-33. *Frankly I don't think it would have mattered to me
WHAT the club had to fly. I just wanted to be in the air.


Yes I had an interest in all types of aircraft prior to my first
flight in a sailplane. I came to give it a try after 15+ years of
flying hang gliders and my first flight was in a 2-33. I can assure
you that I didn't get into flying sailplanes in order to fly a 2-33 or
a 1-26(No offense to the 1-26rs out there, it's just not what I
wanted). Hang gliding will give you far more challenges in going XC
than a 1-26 and you can do it without the hassles of towplanes, FAA
registration or the maintenance that comes along with sailplanes.

A sleek and beautiful glass ship screams efficiency and draws
attention even from non-flyers.

I am fortunate enough to own a Duo, a glider I bought in part because
my feeling is that far too many club members are lost because they
never experience the next level of performance and capability beyond
our basic trainers. The Blanik L-13 was a good step up from the 2-33
and a nice honest airplane that I enjoy flying, but still lacks the
performance of glass and is a bear to pack up and trailer making it
intimidating at a minimum for XC when the penalty for an off-field
landing is such a large effort.

When visitors come by the club and see the 2-33s and the Duo, which
one do you think draws their attention and interest in a demo more?
Does that mean I'm going to offer up my Duo for primary training?
Hell no, the 2-33 does a bang up job of taking the abuse of a new
student. But it does mean that a significant retraining or at least
additional training effort is required to get them prepared for flying
something slippery and pitch sensitive.

If it was within my power, I'd put an ASK-21 on the field. I wouldn't
toss out the 2-33's or 1-26's, but I would certainly love to replace
our L-13 with a 21 and have a glider to move people up in to and cross
train in.

Morgan
  #14  
Old September 15th 10, 08:26 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JS
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Posts: 1,384
Default Future Club Training Gliders

The one redeeming quality of the 2-33 "Dragmaster" is that it laughs
at anything roughly resembling a landing.
Peregrine Sailplane got a government contract a few years ago and
forgot about the glider project, including KR-03A support (ie 3000 hr
life extension).
The PW-6 has been around for a while. Perhaps it is a decent trainer?
Ka13 is a lovely glider to fly, but getting old.
IS28b2 goes nicely but has its share of problems. Never had a go in
the IS32.
Bocian? Capstan? Ka-2? At least they fly better than a 2-33.
Too bad Glasflugel never made a two seater. How about converting 604s?
Twin Astir is a bit of a truck to fly, but seems to take some abuse.
Grob twin 2 is not bad, but I've seen a couple with the fuselage
broken around the landing gear and more with square tail and nose
wheels.
Grob twin 3 handles nicer than the 2, know little of it's use as a
basic trainer.
The Puchacz is nice to fly, but some people just don't like it.
Scheibe SF34 is a nice flyer, easy ground handling, great visibility
front and rear. If the new Scheibe Aircraft puts it back into
production the 34 could be a winner.
DG500 isn't bad, not sure about maintenance. DG1000 is better if you
get the electric landing gear mod and keep the battery charged.
The Duo really is wonderful, especially the X (haven't flown XL) but
not cheap. You cannot intentionally spin the original Duos. Great
support.
AS-H25 and Nimbus 4D are both very nice for XC training, but not for
low time pilots.
AS-K21 gets my vote for this job. Comfortable, sturdy, reasonable
handling. Available new or used. Great support.
Jim
  #15  
Old September 15th 10, 10:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Alex Potter
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Posts: 37
Default Future Club Training Gliders

On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 22:30:49 -0700, Grider Pirate wrote:

I am really curious. How many of you got into soaring with no prior
interest in flying? I wanted to fly since I was about 4 years old. When
I was 47, I finally got the chance, and almost all my lessons were in a
2-33. Frankly I don't think it would have mattered to me WHAT the club
had to fly. I just wanted to be in the air.


Sounds like me. I soloed two weeks after my 50th birthday. I flew a few
different types of aircraft before then, but, after the duo-discus, I
much preferred the Puchacz.

I didn't like flying the type that wouldn't spin - was that the ASK 21?

--
Alex
  #16  
Old September 15th 10, 10:35 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Surfer![_2_]
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Posts: 32
Default Future Club Training Gliders

"JS" wrote in message
...
The one redeeming quality of the 2-33 "Dragmaster" is that it laughs
at anything roughly resembling a landing.


However I suspect there could be a substantial amount of retraining required
to fly other more slippery ships...

snip

The PW-6 has been around for a while. Perhaps it is a decent trainer?


Fine to fly but allegedly somewhat delicate.

Ka13 is a lovely glider to fly, but getting old.


Lots around, cheap, the largest club in the UK has a fleet of them for it's
primary trainers, now (I think) all with the nose wheel mod which is far
safer than a skid for a messed-up landing.

snip

DG500 isn't bad, not sure about maintenance.


Lovely to fly but not a primary trainer.

snip

AS-K21 gets my vote for this job. Comfortable, sturdy, reasonable
handling. Available new or used. Great support.
Jim


Agreed.

  #17  
Old September 15th 10, 11:21 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ray conlon
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Posts: 60
Default Future Club Training Gliders

On Sep 15, 5:35*am, "Surfer!" wrote:
"JS" wrote in message

...

The one redeeming quality of the 2-33 "Dragmaster" is that it laughs
at anything roughly resembling a landing.


However I suspect there could be a substantial amount of retraining required
to fly other more slippery ships...

snip

The PW-6 has been around for a while. Perhaps it is a decent trainer?


Fine to fly but allegedly somewhat delicate.

Ka13 is a lovely glider to fly, but getting old.


Lots around, cheap, the largest club in the UK has a fleet of them for it's
primary trainers, now (I think) all with the nose wheel mod which is far
safer than a skid for a messed-up landing.

snip

DG500 isn't bad, not sure about maintenance.


Lovely to fly but not a primary trainer.

snip

AS-K21 gets my vote for this job. Comfortable, sturdy, reasonable
handling. Available new or used. Great support.
Jim


Agreed.


A large part of the problem in attracting new pilots into soaring is
the cost involved in getting started, you can buy/fly/insure 5 2-33's
for the cost of 1 glass 2 seater, we are talking about a basic trainer
here, not something to race 4 times a year. If the Blaniks and 2-33's
go away, the SAA and number of glider pilots in the USA will shrink to
no more than a couple of thousand pilots. Look at GA, anyone see long
lines of people standing in the Mooney,Bonanza tents at Oshkosh
lately? Notice the crowds in the Light Sport Aircraft tents? The only
growth i sport flying is in the LSA area, you know ,the simple
affordable aircraft.
  #18  
Old September 15th 10, 02:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
bildan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 646
Default Future Club Training Gliders

On Sep 14, 10:48*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Sep 14, 7:49*pm, ray conlon wrote:

On Sep 14, 7:13*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:


I just talked to John Murray about other stuff, and he mentioned that
ASK 21 are actually remarkably easy to get right now. Our club
(chicago glider club) just bought a new ASK21, and it's a joy both to
fly and teach in.


John Cochrane


Get the Schweizers to bring back the 2-33's, the best BASIC trainer
ever built....


Yeah, and the Air Force is going to replace it's T-38s with AT-6s.
Sorry, but the 2-33 is simply not the right trainer anymore (if it
ever was, considering that it postdates the Blanik and is a
contemporary of the sweet little ASK-13!). *We need to attract people
to this sport, not drive them away screaming (or laughing,,,)

Kirk


Exactly!

The 2-33 is suffering the same metal fatigue problems in it's wings as
the L-13.

It also has a HUGE airworthiness issue in that the flight controls in
the front cockpit cannot be moved full range without interfering with
each other. Try holding the spoiler at 50% and moving the stick
through its full range box. Its a mystery how it got an airworthiness
certificate back in 1962. Most pilots with above average thigh
circumference have very little left aileron with 50% spoiler.

The only proper use of a 2-33 is hanging in a museum - as an example
of how NOT to design a glider.
  #19  
Old September 15th 10, 02:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Smith
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Posts: 195
Default Future Club Training Gliders

Am 15.09.10 01:13, schrieb John Cochrane:
I just talked to John Murray about other stuff, and he mentioned that
ASK 21 are actually remarkably easy to get right now. Our club
(chicago glider club) just bought a new ASK21, and it's a joy both to
fly and teach in.


I don't understand why someone would still buy an ASK21 today when you
can get a DG1000 or a Duo which offer *much* more performance for little
more money. And yes, they are perfectly suited for primary training.
  #20  
Old September 15th 10, 03:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Smith
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Posts: 195
Default Future Club Training Gliders

Grider Pirate wrote:
I wanted to fly since I was about 4 years old.
When I was 47, I finally got the chance, and almost all my lessons
were in a 2-33. Frankly I don't think it would have mattered to me
WHAT the club had to fly. I just wanted to be in the air.


George Moffat in "Winning on the Wind":

As a boy, I discovered a copy of Terence Horselay's "Soaring Flight" in
the local library. I must have pretty much worn out their copy, mooning
over pictures of the then fabulous Minimoa, reading accounts by the
great Philip Wills, becoming utterly entranced with the idea of silent
flight.

....

[First training flights in the USA]
After only a few flights in the stodgy two-place trainer, I became
bored. The handling was poor, the performance terrible. There seemed no
connection to the early dream.

....

That summer, while living in Paris [his first solo in an Emouchet, the
French version of the Grunau Baby] ...

Once aloft, the air rushing over my face, the wings seeming extensions
of my arms from the narrow cockpit, I knew that this was the experience
I had dreamed about. ...

That day, late in the evening, Camille Labar, member of the French
National Team, skimmed over the field in the Breguet after completing a
440 km triangle. There were, it seemed, a few things to be learned.



Bottom line: The training glider does matter. And it also does matter
that there are some cross country pilots around.
 




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