More sad news

On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 4:34:57 PM UTC-5, Bob Youngblood wrote:

This is troubling, towplane and glider collide, not good. I fly both ends of the rope, there is never a single second that I always know where the released glider is. This is a high wing towplane, makes for better visibility after release than the Pawnee that we use. Even on pattern tows I go like hell to make sure I beat the glider to base and land well ahead of the glider. A few seconds can make a lot of difference in separation.

C-182 better vis than a Pawnee? No way. Pawnee has better vis than ANY high wing towplane (I have towed in C-172s, Super Cubs, and Pawnees), especially in turns. But the real solution (as discussed later in the thread) is PowerFLARM in both gliders and towplanes.

Kirk

On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 1:22:47 PM UTC-4, Waveguru wrote:
Glider releases, does a right 360° Tow plane does a left 360° I've seen this so many times. They end up back to the same spot. It is often taught this way. Neither plane can see the other until it's too late. Each plane should only do a 20° turn and the glider should be able to keep sight of the tow plane until it is well below the glider. When neither of the pilots can see the other plane, and they are both doing a 360° it is bound to end badly... We need to teach the glider pilots to keep an eye on the tow until it is below us. I don't know if this is what happened in this tragic accident, but it sounds like it might be the case?

Boggs

I agree we should teach the glider pilots to keep an eye on the towplane after release. The glider may do a 360 after release if in lift. But why would the towplane do a 360? At our club the towplane, after turning to the left, typically flies in a straight line until well away from the release point and thus hopefully from the glider. (Not implying anything about this specific tragic accident.)

In this case, both glider and towplane were equipped with PowerFLARM.

I suspect this is the first North American midair between PowerFLARM equipped aircraft (notwithstanding the other midairs noted in this thread).

Hopefully Transport Safety Board Canada will examine the PowerFLARM IGC recordings.

We need to understand what went wrong.

On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 12:19:02 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
In this case, both glider and towplane were equipped with PowerFLARM.

I suspect this is the first North American midair between PowerFLARM equipped aircraft (notwithstanding the other midairs noted in this thread).

Hopefully Transport Safety Board Canada will examine the PowerFLARM IGC recordings.

We need to understand what went wrong.

This is important information. We certainly need to understand what went wrong and hopefully wouldnt need to wait 2 years for a final report to find out. If the midair happened soon after release then powerflarm wouldn't help as all it is doing is warning you of another aircraft which they already knew about. Powerflam is mostly effective when you dont expect traffic and it gets your attention. When you expect traffic such as in the pattern and in gaggles, powerflarm is much less effective as you end up mostly ignoring it and use "see and avoid".

Ramy

At 19:38 29 July 2019, Ramy wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 12:19:02 PM UTC-7, George Haeh
wrote:
In this case, both glider and towplane were equipped with
PowerFLARM.=20
=20
I suspect this is the first North American midair between
PowerFLARM
equi=
pped aircraft (notwithstanding the other midairs noted in this
thread).=20
=20
Hopefully Transport Safety Board Canada will examine the
PowerFLARM IGC
r=
ecordings.=20
=20
We need to understand what went wrong.

This is important information. We certainly need to understand
what went
wr=
ong and hopefully wouldnt need to wait 2 years for a final report to
find
o=
ut. If the midair happened soon after release then powerflarm
wouldn't
help=
as all it is doing is warning you of another aircraft which they
already
k=
new about. Powerflam is mostly effective when you dont expect
traffic and
i=
t gets your attention. When you expect traffic such as in the pattern
and
i=
n gaggles, powerflarm is much less effective as you end up mostly
ignoring
=
it and use "see and avoid".=20

Ramy


At my UK club we had a glider land on a tug that was on the ground
run.The pilot was watching another glider land and thought that was
the flarm alarm.No one was hurt as they were already on the ground.
We think the glider pilot could not see the tug because it was directly
in front and below.
This was this year.

On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 1:25:18 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 4:34:57 PM UTC-5, Bob Youngblood wrote:

This is troubling, towplane and glider collide, not good. I fly both ends of the rope, there is never a single second that I always know where the released glider is. This is a high wing towplane, makes for better visibility after release than the Pawnee that we use. Even on pattern tows I go like hell to make sure I beat the glider to base and land well ahead of the glider. A few seconds can make a lot of difference in separation.

C-182 better vis than a Pawnee? No way. Pawnee has better vis than ANY high wing towplane (I have towed in C-172s, Super Cubs, and Pawnees), especially in turns. But the real solution (as discussed later in the thread) is PowerFLARM in both gliders and towplanes.

Kirk

Interesting, your Pawnee must have better visibility below than the three that I have owned.

On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 12:38:32 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 12:19:02 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
In this case, both glider and towplane were equipped with PowerFLARM.

I suspect this is the first North American midair between PowerFLARM equipped aircraft (notwithstanding the other midairs noted in this thread).

Hopefully Transport Safety Board Canada will examine the PowerFLARM IGC recordings.

We need to understand what went wrong.

This is important information. We certainly need to understand what went wrong and hopefully wouldnt need to wait 2 years for a final report to find out. If the midair happened soon after release then powerflarm wouldn't help as all it is doing is warning you of another aircraft which they already knew about. Powerflam is mostly effective when you dont expect traffic and it gets your attention. When you expect traffic such as in the pattern and in gaggles, powerflarm is much less effective as you end up mostly ignoring it and use "see and avoid".

Ramy

While PF is a big advance in flight safety, it is not perfect. I recently had a close call over Ely where neither of us got any warning (I did get a general alert AFTER I had made an evasive maneuver.

Tom

I would choose ADSB over PowerFlarm now, for a glider and a towplane.

I have a portable WAAS GPS and an obsolete cell phone running Avare to
display ADS-B In targets.Â* It does a better job than Flarm for ADS-B
since I can see the targets on a current sectional chart in relation to
my aircraft.Â* The targets display a flight vector and delta altitude.Â*
Yesterday I had one of my compatriots displayed on different devices as
a Flarm target and as an ADS-B target.

But I have plenty of room in the cockpit for all these toys and my able
wife to share the look out duties.

On 7/30/2019 8:25 AM, wrote:
I would choose ADSB over PowerFlarm now, for a glider and a towplane.

--
Dan, 5J

On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 7:32:06 PM UTC-5, Bob Youngblood wrote:

Interesting, your Pawnee must have better visibility below than the three that I have owned.

Well, I'm more concerned about what is in front of me than what is below me! On tow, in a Pawnee I can clear my flight path better, especially in turns. On descent, I can crank it over and see below me just fine, without those high wings in the way.

It does require care turning base to final when using opposite pattern from gliders - which I address with an angled final all the way to touchdown.

But to each his own - important thing it to fly so as to maximize lookout.

Cheers

Kirk