NTSB Preliminary report on HPN crash

Gary Drescher wrote:


But he was still a mile out when he crashed. Well above the DA, he'd have to
have been fully below the glideslope, which calls for an immediate
missed-approach execution. The DA has no relevance in that situation.

--Gary


Yes, he would have been well below the theoretical glideslope elevation
a mile out (GS elev at that point is approx 812 MSL), but if for some
reason (GS malfunction, undetected false glideslope, equipment problem)
he thought he was on the glideslope, then he probably would not have
initiated go-around until the 639 MSL DA, which would have been too late
based on the elevation of the terrain.
If the 200 AGL ceiling was at the same MSL (839) elevation at the crash
site, then it was only about 20' AGL at the crash site elevation.
Hopefully the final report will shed more light on what happened, as all
we can do is guess.

JPH

"J Haggerty" wrote in message
news:ezAee.4545$Ri4.99@okepread07...

Yes, he would have been well below the theoretical glideslope elevation a
mile out (GS elev at that point is approx 812 MSL), but if for some reason
(GS malfunction, undetected false glideslope, equipment problem) he
thought he was on the glideslope, then he probably would not have
initiated go-around until the 639 MSL DA, which would have been too late
based on the elevation of the terrain.

Except that he'd received and acknowledged a low-altitude alert. If his GS
needle *didn't* show he was very low, then he knew something was wrong
either with the GS or with the controller's radar. That unequivocally calls
for an immediate climb and missed approach.

--Gary

Michael wrote:

I think that's pretty much the point. This is the reality of most
accidents. The pilot is qualified (at least on paper) and there are no
red flags likel buzzing, running out of fuel, drugs, alcohol, or a
blatant mistake or disregard for the regulations. There is simple
mishandling of the airplane in the takeoff/climb or approach/landing
phase of flight. That's what accounts for most accidents and
fatalities.

Good point. I never thought of an accident record devoid of "really
disturbing" as being "really disturbing," but this logic does makes sense.

--
Peter


















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Gary Drescher wrote:

Except that he'd received and acknowledged a low-altitude alert. If his GS
needle *didn't* show he was very low, then he knew something was wrong
either with the GS or with the controller's radar.

Not at all suggesting that this was the case, but at our local flight
school that has all late model C172SPs equipped with B/K KLN-94 GPS's and
moving maps, a number of students over the last few years have been known
to forget to toggle the NAV/GPS switch from GPS to NAV when transitioning
from en route to ILS approach.

As you know, when this happens the VOR1 instrument would show the CDI alive
(but really tracking the GPS's course for the localizer). The glideslope
needle, however, would be flagged and remain perfectly centered, as if the
pilot were flying a perfect glideslope.

--
Peter


















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"Peter R." wrote in message
...
Gary Drescher wrote:

Except that he'd received and acknowledged a low-altitude alert. If his
GS
needle *didn't* show he was very low, then he knew something was wrong
either with the GS or with the controller's radar.

Not at all suggesting that this was the case, but at our local flight
school that has all late model C172SPs equipped with B/K KLN-94 GPS's and
moving maps, a number of students over the last few years have been known
to forget to toggle the NAV/GPS switch from GPS to NAV when transitioning
from en route to ILS approach.

As you know, when this happens the VOR1 instrument would show the CDI
alive
(but really tracking the GPS's course for the localizer). The glideslope
needle, however, would be flagged and remain perfectly centered, as if the
pilot were flying a perfect glideslope.

Yup. Fortunately, there are at least five ways for an instrument pilot to
detect that problem before it's too late: 1) double-check the NAV/GPS
switch; 2) observe the flag on the GS; 3) the GS needle should start high
and then come to center when approaching the FAF; 4) even when established
on the GS, a needle that stays perfectly centered at all times should arouse
suspicion; 5) a low-altitude alert should certainly call attention to the
problem.

--Gary

Gary Drescher wrote:

Fortunately, there are at least five ways for an instrument pilot to
detect that problem before it's too late: 1) double-check the NAV/GPS
switch; 2) observe the flag on the GS; 3) the GS needle should start high
and then come to center when approaching the FAF; 4) even when established
on the GS, a needle that stays perfectly centered at all times should arouse
suspicion; 5) a low-altitude alert should certainly call attention to the
problem.

For the relatively inexperienced or out of practice instrument pilot, high
workload in actual IMC has a way of tricking the mind into seeing or
hearing things that aren't or in your five ways listed above, not seeing or
hearing things that are.

--
Peter


















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cfey,
The instructor was giving IFR instruction for an unrated pilot in
actual IMC. Here is a link to an old thread on Instructor Medical


http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...b825fc9a3dfb2=
e2?dmode=3Dsource&hl=3Den

"In accordance with =A7 61.23(3)(iv) the instructor must hold a valid
third class medical to act as PIC or to be the safety pilot. This is
because of required crewmember status, not due to instruction duties. "

In article ,
says...


Not at all suggesting that this was the case, but at our local flight
school that has all late model C172SPs equipped with B/K KLN-94 GPS's and
moving maps, a number of students over the last few years have been known
to forget to toggle the NAV/GPS switch from GPS to NAV when transitioning
from en route to ILS approach.

As you know, when this happens the VOR1 instrument would show the CDI alive
(but really tracking the GPS's course for the localizer). The glideslope
needle, however, would be flagged and remain perfectly centered, as if the
pilot were flying a perfect glideslope.



The 172R has the same switch (button actually) and yes, it is easy to forget.
But as you correctly state, this produces a flagged, immobile GS indicator.
This would be very difficult to stare at for very long before realizing that
something was wrong.

G Faris

Tom Fleischman k wrote:

Multiple choice: a) you acknowledge the tower call, look
over to the other side of the cockpit to check the altimeter setting,
look at the approach plate, calm down the student pilot in the right
seat and say, in about 14 seconds, hit the cumulogranite;

Why are you assuming the student was flying the approach in this accident?
Do you know something that hasn't been reported?

--
Peter


















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Not according to the news reports I read. And since his 2nd class
reverts to third .. he does get 2 years. The accident was in April.
His medical would have been good till the end of March.


"Michael" wrote in message
oups.com...
Any medical issued to a pilot under 40 (which the CFI was)

Michael