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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 23rd 06, 03:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell
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Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

Kilo Charlie wrote:
"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

Neither does the ASW 28 canopy. Starting with the ASH 26, Schleicher has
incorporated a Roeger hook or equivalent in it's gliders. I believe the
LS8 has also has one, or DG has made one available for it as a retrofit.
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA


Not sure what a Roeger hook is but the LS-8 has a spring loaded mechanism at
the front of the canopy which releases and at the same time a clamp at the
back of the canopy that latches resulting in the canopy getting blown up at
the nose and over the back. Sounds like a much better way to exit than
anything else I've heard of.....other than an ejection seat of course!


From the DG website:

"To avoid these situations [canopy not ejecting properly] Prof. Roeger
of the Technical University Aachen many years ago invented a special
hook, since named for him. After the emergency release the hook turns on
the rear canopy frame and prevents it from moving back. The airstreams
flowing into the cockpit cannot escape and therefore lifts the canopy,
which rotates on the Roeger hook and forces the front of the canopy to
lift off and depart rearwards over the tail fin. Such a Roeger hook has
been a mandatory installation in all new sailplanes for some years.
Great, problem solved."

In addition, DG offers these "hooks" as for retrofit into their older
gliders, now including the LS series. Good for them! I urge all pilots
of older DG/LS gliders to install one soon - the cost for the kit is
less than 200 Euro, according to DG's website, and installation
relatively easy.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org
Ads
  #12  
Old October 23rd 06, 03:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jack[_1_]
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Posts: 82
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

Marc Ramsey wrote:
Jack wrote:
Enough already!

How about the DG-303?


You asking or suggesting?



I'd like to see the DG-303 included in these comparisons.


Jack
  #13  
Old October 23rd 06, 06:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 47
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

I've flown my Ventus 2C alongside the Discus 2, ASW-28, and LS-8, and
if I chose to go with the flapless crowd, my first choice would be the
LS8/18, based upon its performance, cockpit ergonomics, ease of
assembly, and bang for the buck.

The LS-8s I fly with (against?) in Arizona -- at least four of them --
I've only been able to beat in high-speed glides. I think they are
amazing sailplanes.

But those three gliders are all close enough in quality and performance
that if I were buying in the used market, I would take the first good
value that came along.

~ted/2NO

  #14  
Old October 23rd 06, 06:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Marc Ramsey
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Posts: 207
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

Jack wrote:
Marc Ramsey wrote:
Jack wrote:
Enough already!

How about the DG-303?


You asking or suggesting?


I'd like to see the DG-303 included in these comparisons.


I owned a DG-303 Acro and raced it in standard class in a couple of
regionals. I've also flown a Discus 1 and an ASW-24 on a number of
occasions. The three gliders are almost indistinguishable in performance
at equivalent wing loadings. I could usually outclimb a 24, and hold my
own with a Discus. Above 80 knots (wet), a 24 was noticeably faster, I
could usually stay with a Discus. In my opinion, the Discus is the
nicest handling of the three, and the DG is a bit easier to fly well
than the 24. The DG is the most comfortable of the three for me (5'11,
200 lbs, long legs), and has the best visibility. The gelcoat on the
303 is a lot better quality than what was used on the Discus and 24.
You can get a used 303 for about the cost of a Discus or 24 that is
twice the age.

Where the newer standard class ships shine is at the higher end of the
speed range, in 90+ knot head to head runs with D2s between thermals,
I'd usually end up at the next one several hundred feet below. The
difference was a bit less dramatic with the LS8 and ASW-28. I never
felt any performance disadvantage at all relative to the Discus 1 or ASW-24.

Marc
  #15  
Old October 23rd 06, 07:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Papa3
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Posts: 444
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28


Marc Ramsey wrote:
Jack wrote:
Marc Ramsey wrote:
Jack wrote:
Enough already!

How about the DG-303?

You asking or suggesting?


I'd like to see the DG-303 included in these comparisons.


I owned a DG-303 Acro and raced it in standard class in a couple of
regionals. I've also flown a Discus 1 and an ASW-24 on a number of
occasions. The three gliders are almost indistinguishable in performance
at equivalent wing loadings. Marc


My sense after flying wingtip-to-wingtip on ridge and thermal with all
of these ships (excpept the 303) over several years is that the
variation in individual ships is way larger than the theoretical
performance variation. In other words, there are probably some D2s
that are WAY better than some LS8s; conversely, there are some LS8s
that are way better than some D2s. Things like wing smoothness
(Monday gliders), sealing, and CG seem to be much bigger factors than
the basic aircraft.

As an example, a friend of mine recently redid his ASW-27 wings; he
found waviness approaching 6 thou in several areas. He profiled and
smoothed down to less than 3 thou everywhere. If you believe
Johnson's tests, 4 thou or so is the maximum acceptable to prevent
peformance degredation.

I will admit that it seems to me like a well flown D2a is the best of
the bunch at cruise and climb (dolphin) flying, especially at high
speed. However, over a long contest with some weak weather thrown in,
I feel like my LS8 is just as good if not a little bit better. Then
again, I might be biased :-)

Erik Mann
LS8-18 P3

  #16  
Old October 23rd 06, 08:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Nigel Pocock
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Posts: 9
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

Uk handicaps
LS8 100
ASW28 100
Discus 2 100
Discus 98
DG303 98
ASW24 97

Interestingly the first 14 places in the last world
championships were Discus 2 or LS8. First and third
were LS8s.

In the real world pilot capabilities are far more variable
than glider performance. I have seen an ex world champion
in a club class DG101 without water beat most standard
class gliders in a competition.

There is no substitute for skill.
Nigel



  #17  
Old October 23rd 06, 11:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 48
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

It's not even winter yet in the Northern Hemisphere and we're already
starting the "which glider is best?" stuff.

Variability among different serial numbers of the same glider is much
less than it used to be but it's still there due to wing waviness,
winglets, CG, sealing, etc. Probably more of a factor is the pilot,
certainly in climb and even in cruise/pull ups to a certain extent.

Based on comparison flying, if I were after the absolute best
performance, I might slightly favor the Discus 2a--several of them have
given me fits in thermals and I watched Chip Garner and a few other
drivers do amazing things this summer. But I can't fit into one (I'm
6'3"). Moreover, I strongly prefer Schleicher's safety features
(crashworthy cockpit, energy-absorbing landing gear) which is what
pushed me in that direction nearly 15 years ago after a long love
affair with LS.

In considering used ships, gel coat condition should always be a major
consideration, maybe more so than any differences among models. That
said, based on my experience and just to keep the discussion going, I
believe a good used ASW 24 with aftermarket winglets represents a great
value.

My ASW 24 with Hank Nixon's winglets will climb with nearly any glider
and better than many (the stories about the '24's climb "problem"
started in its pre-winglets life). And at Uvalde this summer carrying
full water, I didn't give away much, if anything, at high speed to most
other gliders [would that the same could be said about the piloting].
It's difficult to make absolute statements about performance because
almost no one but a professional leech tucks in right behind another
glider and locks on.

If you're seriously considering any of the Discus 2, LS-8 or ASW 28,
talk to the owners. Like the '24 and the original Discus, each of these
has little things that will annoy you as well as remarkable performance
and handling.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"

  #18  
Old October 24th 06, 01:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Stewart Kissel
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Posts: 94
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

At 21:36 22 October 2006, Roger wrote:
How do these two gliders compare to one another?


Ah yes, winter is upon us. This sort of discussion
seems to boil down to a lot of anectodal evidence from
matching airspeed and glides and the such...out of
curiousity I might try to query further into what your
desires are.

1.) Money is no object...that extra point or two of
L/D is worth thousands?

2,) Looking cool on the ground or in the trailer is
a factor?

3.) How much is this bird going to get flown, or better
yet...raced?

4.) John Cochrane has some excellent writing on how
incremental improvements in piloting allows one to
skip a generation of gliders and still keep up...is
this a factor?

I am not posting to hurl stones here...I spent endless
hours comparing gliders before I bought my previous
two. And I think analysis is important...but defining
ones' needs is sometimes equally as significant.

Has anyone generated a graph of cost/LD when comparing
these ships? In today's market I would assume a fairly
clean Discus is 1/2 the cost of a new ship.



  #19  
Old October 24th 06, 07:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Chris Rollings
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Posts: 4
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

Slightly off topic, but addresses your last point.

'Rollings Law of Price and Performance (for NEW gliders)'

Performance varies with the square root of wing-span;
price varies with the square of wing-span.


At 00:06 24 October 2006, Stewart Kissel wrote:
At 21:36 22 October 2006, Roger wrote:
How do these two gliders compare to one another?


Ah yes, winter is upon us. This sort of discussion
seems to boil down to a lot of anectodal evidence from
matching airspeed and glides and the such...out of
curiousity I might try to query further into what your
desires are.

1.) Money is no object...that extra point or two of
L/D is worth thousands?

2,) Looking cool on the ground or in the trailer is
a factor?

3.) How much is this bird going to get flown, or better
yet...raced?

4.) John Cochrane has some excellent writing on how
incremental improvements in piloting allows one to
skip a generation of gliders and still keep up...is
this a factor?

I am not posting to hurl stones here...I spent endless
hours comparing gliders before I bought my previous
two. And I think analysis is important...but defining
ones' needs is sometimes equally as significant.

Has anyone generated a graph of cost/LD when comparing
these ships? In today's market I would assume a fairly
clean Discus is 1/2 the cost of a new ship.







  #20  
Old October 24th 06, 03:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bill Daniels
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Posts: 687
Default Glider pricing


"Chris Rollings" wrote in message
...
Slightly off topic, but addresses your last point.

'Rollings Law of Price and Performance (for NEW gliders)'

Performance varies with the square root of wing-span;
price varies with the square of wing-span.



The first is aerodynamically correct. The second is market observation.

The cost of materials varies by the weight of the bare airframe. All else
like instruments are the same for all gliders. Labor for a given production
technique probably related to surface area.

The biggest determinant of the final price is production volume. Or, more
correctly, the volume anticipated at the start of production. If a
manufacturer knew from the start that the final production numbers would
exceed say, 3000 gliders, investments in labor saving tooling would make
sense. This, in turn, would increase the production run yet more since
lower prices would eintice still more buyers.

But of course, how do you know you are going to produce a lot of gliders?

Bill Daniels


 




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