Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered

I am sorry to belabor this point, but hopefully I will understand it better
if you have the patience to help me.

I understand that gravity's acceleration is indistinguishable from any other
acceleration in a frame of reference, and that it is 1g in a constant
descent or climb. I also understand that a turn is accelerating to the
center of the arc whether it is descending, level, or climbing.

Are you saying the force vector sums are equivalent when comparing level
turns at the same bank angle to constant rate descent? In other words, that
a 2g load factor occurs in a 60 degree bank regardless of whether remaining
level or a constant rate of descent and that the stall speeds are identical?
The engine power required is plainly different.

Thanks.



The center just becomes a line in that case, doesn't it? You end up
with the same centripetal force needed towards that center line in
order to turn.

Nosing over into a descent does temporarily reduce load factor, but as
soon as you're established in a constant descent, you're back at the
same 1g load. Gravity is *acceleration*, not *velocity*.

--
James Carlson, Solaris Networking

On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken

-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training pilot --
don't cross control stall on turn to final!

A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns,
even in twink flying, gee I wonder why.
It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was
a requirement for a pilot's license.
Ken
[snip, I have no comment]

This is bugging me so much, I am going to climb to altitude and test it
myself next time I fly.

It will be good practice anyway. The problem will be that the airspeed
indicator isn't that accurate at those slow speeds but it should be
equivalent in both level and descending flight stall breaks. The hard part
will be maintaining a constant descent rate while in a steep bank and not
letting it wander up and down.

I believe you guys are correct, I just can't understand the reason behind
it. Nothing like a real experiment to prove the theory if I can't
understand the physics behind it.

wrote:


Are you saying the force vector sums are equivalent when comparing level
turns at the same bank angle to constant rate descent? In other words, that
a 2g load factor occurs in a 60 degree bank regardless of whether remaining
level or a constant rate of descent and that the stall speeds are identical?

Yes. That's exactly the case.

Stalls are determined by the critical angle of attack. The so-called
stall speed is the minimum speed required to maintain (vertical)
unaccellerated flight without exceeding the critical angle. It doesn't
matter if it is "level" or any other constant rate.


The engine power required is plainly different.

That is true, but engine power has nothing to do with stalling.

wrote in news:mrTBj.72580$yE1.11316@attbi_s21:

Why does no one distinguish between a level turn (constant
acceleration into the center of the arc, which increases load factor)
and the load factor in which the same angle of bank exists in a
descent?

Because it's negligable.


Bertie

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in news:343516c1-8fa1-
:

On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken

-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training pilot
--
don't cross control stall on turn to final!

A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns,
even in twink flying, gee I wonder why.
It's a perfectly safe thing to do


Not on base to finals it isn't, you moron.


and IIRC was
a requirement for a pilot's license.
Ken
[snip, I have no comment]


You never do. Just crap.


Bertie

wrote in news:rmVBj.72735$yE1.30385@attbi_s21:

This is bugging me so much, I am going to climb to altitude and test
it myself next time I fly.

It will be good practice anyway. The problem will be that the
airspeed indicator isn't that accurate at those slow speeds but it
should be equivalent in both level and descending flight stall breaks.
The hard part will be maintaining a constant descent rate while in a
steep bank and not letting it wander up and down.


Doesn't matter if it's correct or not, you'll reap huge benifits form this
sort of experimentation in the experience you'll get flying that close to
the edge.



Bertie

In article xQUBj.19725$TT4.4490@attbi_s22, wrote:

I am sorry to belabor this point, but hopefully I will understand it better
if you have the patience to help me.

I understand that gravity's acceleration is indistinguishable from any other
acceleration in a frame of reference, and that it is 1g in a constant
descent or climb. I also understand that a turn is accelerating to the
center of the arc whether it is descending, level, or climbing.

Are you saying the force vector sums are equivalent when comparing level
turns at the same bank angle to constant rate descent? In other words, that
a 2g load factor occurs in a 60 degree bank regardless of whether remaining
level or a constant rate of descent and that the stall speeds are identical?
The engine power required is plainly different.

Thanks.

In the case of descending flight, gravity is supplying some of the power
required to maintain flight. With wings level, you are at 1.0 g whether
climbing, level or descending. The same rules apply to turning flight.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

Ron Natalie wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote:

Ask your instructor to explain to you what happens to the stall speed
in a LEVEL turn as opposed to the stall speed in an unloaded gliding
turn from base to final.
This is a distinction you should definitely be aware of.


If he's maintaining a constant rate of descent during the turn there is
no distinction. The load factor decreases only if he is accellerating
towards the ground.
Exactly. The difference between a loaded turn and simply allowing the
nose to fall through with reduced back pressure.

--
Dudley Henriques

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken
-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training pilot --
don't cross control stall on turn to final!

A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns,
even in twink flying, gee I wonder why.
It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was
a requirement for a pilot's license.

Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

The Practical Test Standard requires the
demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree
bank and a safe or recommended airspeed.

That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's
not going to be 2g in my plane.