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  #31  
Old March 22nd 08, 05:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]
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Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bob F. wrote:
That's also an interesting question. I don't know what your
experience or training is, with respect, but in an airliner, the last
time the PF has his hand on the throttle is at V1 at which point you
remove your hand off the throttle and place it, now both of your
hands, on the yoke. It's not until much later into the flight that
the PF will ever touch the throttle again. All commands are directed
to the PNF to do. This is a curious ritual on take off, and varies
slightly by airline manual. Here's how it goes. At stop position on
the runway, the PF places his hand on the throttles, advances them
part way to see that all engines are coming alive with roughly the
same power and then says to the PNF, "Set Take Off Thrust" at which
point the PNF has his hand(s) over the PF's hand and pushed the
throttle to the predefined calculated power setting. The PF does NOT
look at the settings and is concentrating on the take off. The PNF
will concentrate on engine settings and will make very fine settings
until V1. The PNF is also watching other controls and will call out
any anomalies to the PF. He will not take action by himself. The
PNF will call out a cross check at 80 Kts and the PF will confirm
(his AS is active and reading 80kts). The PNF will call out the V1
speed and the PF will pull his hand off the throttles, to the yoke.
The reason for this is to show that the PF (Captain has command) and
can abort before V1. Past V1, you take off no matter what. The PNF
calls Vr and the PF rotates, and targets V2. The PNF calls positive
rate, the PF says gear up and the PNF brings the gear up. The climb
out is at V2 and the PNF calls 400 ft, The PF call for new specific
power settings and flap settings, the PNF confirms and reduces
power, makes the adjustment, and adjusts flaps. It goes quick.
That's what happens below pattern.

You can see the sequence is rigid and regimented and at no time is
anyone doing anything out of sequence. The main part of the flight
is also loaded with paperwork. A similar ritual is performed on
approach and landing. One ritual that is not taught in GA that the
121 guys do, is the sterile cockpit rule. I'd also like to see more
GA rules about getting everyone in the airplane when close to
airports to look for traffic. This is no time for chit-chat.

I also spent a lot of time at Moffet Field in their Human Factors
center and I was also a member of RTCA identifying human factor
problems, writing MOPS and setting standards. I worked on designing
the Aviation Telecommunication Network around the world. This is a
post ACARS II network. We never could figure out if you had a server
on the ground and you were receiving a data file in say a laptop in
your airplane, is that uploading or downloading? And a more serious
problem...with enough laptops, can you receive enough bits to cause
the airplane to go over gross? ;-)

Too much rambling here. Did I give you a glimpse of the airline
world?


An excellent look indeed. Sounds like you've done some good work in
the flight safety field.

The airline industry I'm sure places the same importance on CRM as we
do dealing with the high performance single pilot environment. The two
venues of course are quite different, each with their own individual
methods for optimizing safety in the cockpit environment; the airline
aspect naturally having to deal with the added crew factor and the
pros and cons of the implied interaction there.

In a way, your environment is even more complicated than ours for this
reason alone. We deal with the interactive relationship between the
conscious and sub conscious as a single pilot attempts to deal with
the extremely high multi-task environment we have in low altitude
display flying where both the macro and micro aspects of this scenario
can pile on causing over task. It's more complicated for your scenario
I believe, because of the added factor of crew interaction where
tasking and sequence responsibility have to be clearly defined.

In our venue, throttle is considered as a prime control and as such
requires the placement of the hand on that control during all
operations at and below pattern altitude.

It goes without saying that in handling high performance military type
single engine airplanes where engine and aerodynamic factors at low
altitudes can require instant power adjustment as a preemptive as well
as a reactionary measure, that having the hand on the throttle is
mandatory to satisfy the flight safety issue.

I have carried this philosophy into my primary and aerobatic
instruction as well and encourage all GA pilots flying single pilot to
use this procedure.



Yeah, rthere;s a few differences between flying the two as far as
throttle goes. the autothrottle is king nowadays. It sets takeoff thrust
instead of PNF ( actually the FE did it in every three crew airplane
I've flown) but it's generally disengaged right after the thrust is set
autmatically and just manitains the thrust postion. It can do the
approach, but if you;'re hand flying it is generally verboten to use the
autothrottle as you just have a mess if you do ( try controlling the
speed with a nudge of pitch when the autothrottle is fighting you) but
in fact, the hand on throttle thing is even more critical in a jet when
on approach thna it is with a prop driven airplane. Swept wing airplanes
are mostly less speed stable than straight wing airplanes. That is, the
drag doesnt decrease nearly as much as it does when you lose a bit of
speed, so the airplane is less inclined to seek it's original speed if
you've lost or gained a bit. This means you have to be a bit more
assertive with the thrust to keep your speed in line. This is
exacerbated by the nature of jet thrust. When you slow down in a prop
aircraft, the prop blades are naturally getting a better bite,. they
have a slightly higher AoA ( yes, even constant speed props) and they
tend to pull the airplane back to it's original speed. Not so mush with
a jet. While tractive effort is increased if you lose a bit of speed,
it's negligable compared to that which you get with a prop.
having said all that, modern jet engines are all high bypass fans and
really almost proppeler driven. Wings have significantly less sweep than
they used to since manufacturers are using other tricks to get a decent
speed out of them, so the 757 or the 737 NG is significantly easier to
fly on approach than the old 727 was. And I've heard that the 707
required you to get up the day before in order to stay ahead of it!


Bertie
  #34  
Old March 22nd 08, 06:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
WJRFlyBoy
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On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:13:53 -0400, Dudley Henriques wrote:

I used
"Every good pilot must take off fine check"

and

"Every good pilot must land fine check"

--
Dudley Henriques


????????
  #35  
Old March 22nd 08, 06:37 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Ron Garret
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In article ,
Dudley Henriques wrote:

Larry D. Cosby wrote:
Hi, I was wondering what the acronym GUMPS stood on a landing checklist.
Larry


There are a few versions, but one widely used is;
Gas,Undercarraige,Mixture,Prop, Safety Harness


I always got confused whether G was Gas or Gear, so I started using
STUMP:

Seatbelts
Tanks
Undercarriage
etc.

rg
  #36  
Old March 22nd 08, 12:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
buttman
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On Mar 21, 6:08*pm, Dan wrote:
On Mar 21, 5:42 pm, "Bob F." wrote:

Everyone knows the gear can't come up while taxiing anyway, no matter what
you do with the switches.


You have got to be kidding...?

Or else flying a fixed gear.

Dan Mc


Theres no way the gear can retract while the plane's weight is on the
gear.

Even if the squat switch were to fail, the gear retraction motor is
not going to be powerful enough to bring the gear up from underneath
you.
  #37  
Old March 22nd 08, 01:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dan[_10_]
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On Mar 22, 7:53 am, buttman wrote:
On Mar 21, 6:08 pm, Dan wrote:

On Mar 21, 5:42 pm, "Bob F." wrote:


Everyone knows the gear can't come up while taxiing anyway, no matter what
you do with the switches.


You have got to be kidding...?


Or else flying a fixed gear.


Dan Mc


Theres no way the gear can retract while the plane's weight is on the
gear.

Even if the squat switch were to fail, the gear retraction motor is
not going to be powerful enough to bring the gear up from underneath
you.


DOH!

Right..

The problem isn't manifest while taxiing -- it's getting almost
airborne and settling, as others have posted.
  #38  
Old March 22nd 08, 01:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Ron Natalie
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Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Bob F." wrote in
:

Everyone knows the gear can't come up while taxiing anyway, no matter
what you do with the switches.


Though I knew some tit who used to pull the lever up at the start of the
take off roll and rely on the prox switch on the gear to do the rest for
him.

Guess what?


Prox switch, what is that . You raise the handle on my plane and the
next sound you hear is the prop hitting the pavement. Even on planes
with squat switches you want to make sure the switch is down before
moving the aircraft.

There's about three different "make sure the handle is down" before
cranking.
  #39  
Old March 22nd 08, 01:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Ron Natalie
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buttman wrote:
On Mar 21, 6:08 pm, Dan wrote:
On Mar 21, 5:42 pm, "Bob F." wrote:

Everyone knows the gear can't come up while taxiing anyway, no matter what
you do with the switches.

You have got to be kidding...?

Or else flying a fixed gear.

Dan Mc


Theres no way the gear can retract while the plane's weight is on the
gear.

Even if the squat switch were to fail, the gear retraction motor is
not going to be powerful enough to bring the gear up from underneath
you.


Negatory good buddy. Maybe not the mains, but a lot of planes
can get the nose gear going up enough to hit the prop.

Even the starter motor will cause the hydraulic pump to give enough
pressure to pull the Navion nose gear up over center. And I've only
seen one Navion with a squat switch interlock.
  #40  
Old March 22nd 08, 01:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dan[_10_]
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On Mar 22, 8:41 am, Ron Natalie wrote:

Negatory good buddy. Maybe not the mains, but a lot of planes
can get the nose gear going up enough to hit the prop.


The Bonanza mains certainly won't (close inboard), but the nose gear
-- might.

I really never want to know.


 




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