Attention US Standard Class Pilots

Tom,

Unless I am unaware of different handicaps used at the Senior
Championships, how can the Seniors be considered a level playing
field, yet the Sports class is won by span and wingloading?

Richard Walters


The Seniors contest proves it can be done. *It is over-subscribed and
everyone (over 55) *is welcome - bring what you got, (no water
ballast, 20 meter limit) and you fly with a handicap that permits
anyone to be able to win.

The Sports class tries to do this, however, span / wing loading wins.
..
Tom Knauff

On Feb 10, 8:46*am, Rick Walters wrote:
Tom,

Unless I am unaware of different handicaps used at the Senior
Championships, how can the Seniors be considered a level playing
field, yet the Sports class is won by span and wingloading?

Richard Walters

Hold your horses there a moment, Rick! "Sports class is won by span
and wingloading??" That's how Tim Mcalester won in a Libelle, and Dave
Stephenson won in a Foka? And the poor Nimbuses never can seem to
overcome their huge handicaps? Open class is won by span and
wingloading and dollar-loading maybe. Sports class is won by pilots.
John Cochrane

On Feb 10, 9:53*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Feb 10, 8:46*am, Rick Walters wrote: Tom,

Unless I am unaware of different handicaps used at the Senior
Championships, how can the Seniors be considered a level playing
field, yet the Sports class is won by span and wingloading?

Richard Walters

Hold your horses there a moment, Rick! "Sports class is won by span
and wingloading??" That's how Tim Mcalester won in a Libelle, and Dave
Stephenson won in a Foka? And the poor Nimbuses never can seem to
overcome their huge handicaps? Open class is won by span and
wingloading and dollar-loading maybe. Sports class is won by pilots.
John Cochrane

"Won by span and wingloading" is Tom Knauff's statement. It is true
that in very weak weather span plays a big role (e.g. Elmira a few
years ago). The Seniors seems to have more consistent conditions.
QT

On Feb 10, 7:42*am, Tom wrote:
The problem with glider racing has been technology improving the
product, making anything less than the latest (most expensive) glider
uncompetitive. This has limited the field to those who have the money
and desire to always have the best, or in some cases the glider with
the highest wing loading.

The Seniors contest proves it can be done. *It is over-subscribed and
everyone (over 55) *is welcome - bring what you got, (no water
ballast, 20 meter limit) and you fly with a handicap that permits
anyone to be able to win.

The Sports class tries to do this, however, span / wing loading wins.

Sports Class handicaps combined with span-limited contests might
attract many more pilots because they would actually have a realistic
chance to win.

Tom Knauff

The proposed Standard class test of limited handicapping directly
addresses the issue of "latest" technology and associated costs as a
negative factor in participation. "Current" gliders and one generation
back gliders will be able to compete on as level a playing field as
any handicapping system can provide.
This more than doubles the number of "competitive" gliders.
So far feedback to me has been strongly in favor of giving this a try.
UH

On Feb 10, 8:53*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Feb 10, 8:46*am, Rick Walters wrote: Tom,

Unless I am unaware of different handicaps used at the Senior
Championships, how can the Seniors be considered a level playing
field, yet the Sports class is won by span and wingloading?

Richard Walters

Hold your horses there a moment, Rick! "Sports class is won by span
and wingloading??" That's how Tim Mcalester won in a Libelle, and Dave
Stephenson won in a Foka? And the poor Nimbuses never can seem to
overcome their huge handicaps? Open class is won by span and
wingloading and dollar-loading maybe. Sports class is won by pilots.
John Cochrane

LOL Dollar Loading, you owe me a new keyboard John!

John,

I was addressing Tom Knauff's comments. My horses have been in the
barn for years. The sports nationals have been won by a Nimbus 3, a
1-34, and everything in between. It is not what you fly but how you
fly it. Our honorable sport seems to be under threat from pilots that
reason away entering competition. Unless you are losing the 15m
nationals by 3% in your LS6, your glider is not your real handicap,
you are. Racing is fun and educational no matter your final placing.

Rick Walters

On Feb 10, 6:53*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Feb 10, 8:46*am, Rick Walters wrote: Tom,

Unless I am unaware of different handicaps used at the Senior
Championships, how can the Seniors be considered a level playing
field, yet the Sports class is won by span and wingloading?

Richard Walters

Hold your horses there a moment, Rick! "Sports class is won by span
and wingloading??" That's how Tim Mcalester won in a Libelle, and Dave
Stephenson won in a Foka? And the poor Nimbuses never can seem to
overcome their huge handicaps? Open class is won by span and
wingloading and dollar-loading maybe. Sports class is won by pilots.
John Cochrane

On Feb 10, 8:20*am, Rick Walters wrote:
John,

I was addressing Tom Knauff's comments. My horses have been in the
barn for years. The sports nationals have been won by a Nimbus 3, a
1-34, and everything in between. It is not what you fly but how you
fly it. Our honorable sport seems to be under threat from pilots that
reason away entering competition. Unless you are losing the 15m
nationals by 3% in your LS6, your glider is not your real handicap,
you are. Racing is fun and educational no matter your final placing.

Rick Walters

On Feb 10, 6:53*am, John Cochrane
wrote:







On Feb 10, 8:46*am, Rick Walters wrote: Tom,

Unless I am unaware of different handicaps used at the Senior
Championships, how can the Seniors be considered a level playing
field, yet the Sports class is won by span and wingloading?

Richard Walters

Hold your horses there a moment, Rick! "Sports class is won by span
and wingloading??" That's how Tim Mcalester won in a Libelle, and Dave
Stephenson won in a Foka? And the poor Nimbuses never can seem to
overcome their huge handicaps? Open class is won by span and
wingloading and dollar-loading maybe. Sports class is won by pilots.
John Cochrane

For once I agree with John Cochrane - differences in pilot skills are
likely to outweigh any small differences in sailplane handicap. I
have a very fine sailplane, but consistently fly 5% to 10% slower than
my better colleagues. The only effect the proposed rule might have is
to encourage participants who might have been discouraged by a
perceived handicap disadvantage.

My suggestion to handicap pilots (like we do horses in races) has been
universally laughed at!

Mike

On Feb 10, 8:20*am, Rick Walters wrote:
John,

I was addressing Tom Knauff's comments. My horses have been in the
barn for years. The sports nationals have been won by a Nimbus 3, a
1-34, and everything in between. It is not what you fly but how you
fly it. Our honorable sport seems to be under threat from pilots that
reason away entering competition. Unless you are losing the 15m
nationals by 3% in your LS6, your glider is not your real handicap,
you are. Racing is fun and educational no matter your final placing.

Rick Walters

On Feb 10, 6:53*am, John Cochrane
wrote:



On Feb 10, 8:46*am, Rick Walters wrote: Tom,

Unless I am unaware of different handicaps used at the Senior
Championships, how can the Seniors be considered a level playing
field, yet the Sports class is won by span and wingloading?

Richard Walters

Hold your horses there a moment, Rick! "Sports class is won by span
and wingloading??" That's how Tim Mcalester won in a Libelle, and Dave
Stephenson won in a Foka? And the poor Nimbuses never can seem to
overcome their huge handicaps? Open class is won by span and
wingloading and dollar-loading maybe. Sports class is won by pilots.
John Cochrane

Tom was referring to Elmira in 2009 and Parowan in 2010. At Parowan
none of the true "Club Class" gliders got home when the task put us
across nearly unlandable terrain into the wind. Those with span, l/d
or wingloading could make the jump. In theory the handicaps work as
long as everyone can get around. Throw in the need to make a big
crossing of a gap or hole and the light ships with lower wingloading
have a higher risk of not getting home.

Tim

Growing up in a family of competitive tennis players, I always loved this zinger from my mom:

- Me: XYZ beat me because he has a new Wilson T2000
- Mom: XYZ beat you 6-2, 6-1. He'd beat you with broom handle. Go out and hit another 1,000 balls.

Mike the Strike wrote:
My suggestion to handicap pilots (like we do horses in races) has been
universally laughed at!

Mike, that's a good idea, IMO. You don't see golf clubs handicapped,
but rather the golfer, even at the highest level of the game.

-John