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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 12th 08, 04:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
skym
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Posts: 67
Default Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered

While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was
going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to
final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as
possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/
spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep
the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and
not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct?
(Not that I intend to make it a practice.)
  #2  
Old March 12th 08, 04:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Tina
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Posts: 500
Default Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered

Are you suggesting you can't stall with a centered ball? Go slow
enough, and in a steep turn the stall will put your stomach in your
throat.




On Mar 11, 11:23*pm, skym wrote:
While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was
going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to
final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as
possible. *I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/
spin by some pilots in this situation, *I kept thinking that if I keep
the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and
not auger in. *Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct?
(Not that I intend to make it a practice.)


  #3  
Old March 12th 08, 04:31 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
xxx
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Posts: 39
Default Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered

No, certainly not.

Stall speed increases dramatically with angle of bank: the more
vertical your wings become, the less horizontal lift they supply for a
given air speed.

You can definitely stall with the ball centered. This is true
regardless of bank angle. If you do stall below TPA (like when turning
base to final) your odds of auguring in are high no matter how neatly
centered your ball was when you initiated the stall.

On Mar 11, 8:23 pm, skym wrote:
While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was
going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to
final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as
possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/
spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep
the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and
not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct?
(Not that I intend to make it a practice.)


  #4  
Old March 12th 08, 04:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Ron Lee[_2_]
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Posts: 233
Default Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered

skym wrote:

While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was
going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to
final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as
possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/
spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep
the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and
not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct?
(Not that I intend to make it a practice.)


What happens to stall speed as your bank angle increases?

What are two options to preventing a stall (regardless of whether a
spin in entered)?

Ron Lee
  #5  
Old March 12th 08, 04:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
skym
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Posts: 67
Default Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered

Thanks for replies. I had meant to address the speed issue since I
knew the stall speed increased with bank. I also kept my speed higher
than normal in the turn because of that. I left it out of the
question, and shouldn't have. Assuming I keep the speed up, is the
centered ball a reliable guide?
  #6  
Old March 12th 08, 04:57 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dudley Henriques[_2_]
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Posts: 2,546
Default Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered

skym wrote:
While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was
going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to
final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as
possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/
spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep
the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and
not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct?
(Not that I intend to make it a practice.)


Ask your instructor to explain to you what happens to the stall speed in
a LEVEL turn as opposed to the stall speed in an unloaded gliding turn
from base to final.
This is a distinction you should definitely be aware of.

--
Dudley Henriques
  #7  
Old March 12th 08, 05:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Roy Smith
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Posts: 478
Default Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered

In article ,
Dudley Henriques wrote:

skym wrote:
While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was
going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to
final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as
possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/
spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep
the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and
not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct?
(Not that I intend to make it a practice.)


Ask your instructor to explain to you what happens to the stall speed in
a LEVEL turn as opposed to the stall speed in an unloaded gliding turn
from base to final.
This is a distinction you should definitely be aware of.


Dudley,

I'm not sure what you mean by "unloaded gliding turn". As long as your
descent rate is constant, the loading in a turn is exactly the same as it
is during level flight. A turn is only unloaded if your descent rate is
increasing, as it is during the second quadrant of a lazy eight. But, most
people don't fly their base-to-final turns like that; they fly them at a
(more or less) constant descent rate.

Either that, or I'm mis-understanding what you're trying to say.
  #8  
Old March 12th 08, 05:31 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dudley Henriques[_2_]
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Posts: 2,546
Default Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered

Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
Dudley Henriques wrote:

skym wrote:
While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was
going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to
final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as
possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/
spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep
the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and
not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct?
(Not that I intend to make it a practice.)

Ask your instructor to explain to you what happens to the stall speed in
a LEVEL turn as opposed to the stall speed in an unloaded gliding turn
from base to final.
This is a distinction you should definitely be aware of.


Dudley,

I'm not sure what you mean by "unloaded gliding turn". As long as your
descent rate is constant, the loading in a turn is exactly the same as it
is during level flight. A turn is only unloaded if your descent rate is
increasing, as it is during the second quadrant of a lazy eight. But, most
people don't fly their base-to-final turns like that; they fly them at a
(more or less) constant descent rate.

Either that, or I'm mis-understanding what you're trying to say.

The situation I'm describing can occur if you are high as well as wide.
Trading off the altitude by unloading the wings as you turn, you are in
effect doing a gentle last half of a lazy eight, although very shallow.
Unless you can unload the wings by lowering the nose, you are absolutely
correct. Everything is the same g wise. The only reason I mentioned this
is so that he gets squared away on the different scenarios concerning
the base to final turn.
Many students get into a deep fear about base to final turns and bank
thinking all they need to do is increase the bank and they are on the
stall speed increase with g graph. This is true for a level turn and
even a loaded descending turn, but many times on an approach, a pilot
can make the energy tradeoff saving the turn by unloading in the turn
and letting the nose drop scrubbing off some altitude while neutralizing
the bank g increase.


--
Dudley Henriques
  #9  
Old March 12th 08, 07:18 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Ken S. Tucker
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Posts: 442
Default Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered

On Mar 11, 7:23 pm, skym wrote:
While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was
going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to
final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as
possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/
spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep
the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and
not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct?
(Not that I intend to make it a practice.)


Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken
  #10  
Old March 12th 08, 12:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Denny
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Posts: 562
Default Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered

The absolute best way to find out what will happen is to take an
instructor and go out and do steep turns until you stall it...
Obviously, with adequate altitude...

One of the things you will find is that it is down right hard to stall
the plane in a coordinated turn at a normal approach speed... You will
need to have the yoke back into your gut and ignore all the G's and
the complaining and shaking the airframe will be making... Now, that
isn't to say you can't stall it, but you will have to be blind and
deaf and have a numb butt to do it accidentally...

The other thing you will find is that it is easier to do it in an
uncoordinated turn, but it still takes determination and ignoring the
airframe shaking like a wet dog...

"So, how did Harry Dumbass manage to ignore this and kill himself and
his passengers by turning his fork tailed doctor killer into a lawn
dart?", you ask...
Ahh, I'm glad you asked that...
Ya see, Harry is both high because he is in close and about to over
run the centerline because he is in close... So, being a hotshot
pilot, he chops the throttle, rolls into a hard bank, and stands on
the bottom rudder... About halfway around he realizes his descent rate
has gone off the peg and he is now going to be way short - so he
solves that by pulling the nose up!

Close your eyes and picture it...
The bottom wing snap stalls without so much as a warning shudder
(because the horizontal stab is still flying) , they whip over
inverted, and it is all over but the screaming...

denny
 




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