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Is the 787 a failure ?



 
 
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  #151  
Old February 15th 13, 03:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.aviation.military,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions
Bradley K. Sherman
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Posts: 50
Default Is the 787 a failure ?

I think we've moved beyond a "minor tweak":
|
| The Wall Street Journal is reporting that Airbus' upcoming
| A350, the company's competitor to Boeing's high-tech 787
| Dreamliner, will drop all use of lithium-ion batteries.
| ...
http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/14/3990308/airbus-350-reportedly-dropping-lithium-ion-batteries

--bks

  #152  
Old February 17th 13, 04:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.aviation.military,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions
Bradley K. Sherman
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Default Is the 787 a failure ?

Jumping from "minor tweak" to "OMFG!":
|
| Boeing will propose to regulators as early as this week a
| short-term fix to bolster the 787's defenses in case of
| battery fires like those that have kept the jet grounded
| for the past month.
| ...
| The interim fix includes a heavy-duty titanium or steel
| containment box around the battery cells, and high-pressure
| evacuation tubes that, in the event of a battery fire,
| would vent any gases directly to the outside of the jet.
|
| Boeing's approach implicitly acknowledges that four weeks
| after two batteries overheated -- one catching fire on the
| ground, the other smoldering in flight -- investigators
| have still not pinpointed the cause.
| ...
| However, it's unclear if the FAA is ready yet to accept
| containment of an overheated battery cell rather than
| prevention.
| ...
| Brian Barnett, a battery specialist with Mass.-based
| technology development company VIAX who has closely studied
| lithium ion battery failures, said that in his lab's
| experience, about half the time "you cannot reach solid
| conclusions" about the root cause.
| ...
http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2020373450_boeing787xml.html?prmid=4939

--bks

  #153  
Old February 22nd 13, 03:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Vaughn
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Posts: 154
Default Is the 787 a failure ?

On 1/10/2013 3:02 PM, Transition Zone wrote:
A Week Boeing Would Like To Forget
By Alex Zolbert, CNN, updated 2:01 PM EST, Thu January 10, 2013

More concerns for Dreamliner - (CNN) --


A bit of progress...

Japan's transport ministry said it had identified the likely cause of
fuel leaks on the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, but is still looking into why
batteries overheated on two occasions, causing the aircraft to be
grounded globally

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...013656490.html

Vaughn
  #154  
Old February 23rd 13, 11:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.aviation.military,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions
Bradley K. Sherman
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Posts: 50
Default Is the 787 a failure ?

|
| After meeting with Boeing executives, top federal aviation
| officials said on Friday that they would not approve any
| fix to the battery problems on the 787 jetliner until they
| were certain that the batteries would not fail again.
| ...
| "The safety of the flying public is our top priority and
| we won't allow the 787 to return to commercial service
| until we're confident that any proposed solution has
| addressed the battery failure risks," Laura J. Brown, a
| spokeswoman for the Federal Aviation Administration, said
| in a statement.
| ...
| The meeting, however, was unlikely to bring about a quick
| lifting of the 787s' grounding order. Boeing is asking the
| F.A.A. to approve the fixes even though safety
| investigators have not figured out precisely what caused
| the battery on one plane to ignite and the battery on
| another to start smoking last month.
| ...
| In that sense, the meeting on Friday was also aimed at
| expanding the company's emphasis from engineering work to
| the political arena.
| ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/23/business/faa-sets-terms-for-boeings-battery-fixes-on-787.html

--bks

  #155  
Old February 25th 13, 07:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.aviation.military,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions
[email protected]
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Posts: 155
Default Is the 787 a failure ?

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 07:46:01 +0000, Charlie+ wrote:

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 22:53:02 +0000 (UTC), (Bradley K.
Sherman) wrote as underneath my scribble :

Thanks for the mini updates here . appreciated. C+
|
| After meeting with Boeing executives, top federal aviation

snip
--bks

Appartently on at least one plane the APU was miss-wired.
  #158  
Old February 25th 13, 11:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.aviation.military,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions
[email protected]
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Posts: 155
Default Is the 787 a failure ?

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 14:49:34 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 2/25/2013 1:06 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 13:08:16 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 07:46:01 +0000, wrote:

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 22:53:02 +0000 (UTC),
(Bradley K.
Sherman) wrote as underneath my scribble :

Thanks for the mini updates here . appreciated. C+
|
| After meeting with Boeing executives, top federal aviation
snip
--bks
Appartently on at least one plane the APU was miss-wired.


No indication that I've seen (so far) that it was significant to the
problem. Could have been a shield grounded at the wrong end, a
different wire gauge than the drawings or something like that.


And it MIGHT have been the battery voltage sense wire.
Why are we guessing at this?

Related articles
Q&A: What is the impact of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner safety concerns

Jet problems fail to stall Boeing

Delays with Dreamliners deepen nightmare for Boeing

Dreamliner fault tests focus on damaged battery

Boeing faces vast bill over Dreamliner delivery delay
Ads by Google


Japan's Transport Ministry said that an investigation into the
overheating of a lithium ion battery in an All Nippon Airways (ANA)
Boeing 787 discovered it had been improperly wired.

The Transport Safety Board said that the battery of the aircraft's
auxiliary power unit (APU) was incorrectly connected to the main
battery that overheated.

However, it added that a protective valve would have prevented power
from the APU from doing any damage.

The safety board said that more analysis was needed



Perhaps they should have stated "a protectiive valve SHOULD have
prevented power from the APU from doing any damage"

  #159  
Old February 27th 13, 05:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.aviation.military,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions
Bradley K. Sherman
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Posts: 50
Default Is the 787 a failure ?

|
| The Federal Aviation Administration says it is not close to
| approving test flights of Boeing Co.'s 787 Dreamliner with
| a proposed Boeing fix for the aircraft's lithium-ion
| batteries.
|
| The agency was responding to a Wall Street Journal report
| Tuesday that federal regulators have been working to give
| Chicago-based Boeing Co. the OK for airborne tests of
| proposed battery fixes as early as next week, though the
| actual test flights aren't likely to come that quickly. The
| newspaper cited unnamed sources familiar with the details.
|
| "Reports that we are close to allowing 787 test flights are
| completely inaccurate," spokeswoman Laura Brown said in an
| email statement to the Chicago Sun-Times Wednesday.
| ...
http://www.suntimes.com/business/18509916-420/faa-denies-report-that-boeing-787-fix-test-flights-near.html

--bks

  #160  
Old February 27th 13, 08:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.aviation.military,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions
Richard[_8_]
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Posts: 156
Default Is the 787 a failure ?

This came along a few days ago.
Unverified (like most Internet gossip)
Reputedly form a retired Boeing engineer.
The merge between Boeing and MD did happen - 1997.
But I can't confirm or deny the internal workings.



For one thing the problem may not be with the batteries
themselves, but with the control system that keeps the charge on them at
a given level. And the 'battery problem" is just one problem in many.
Last week I had my regular monthly lunch with 5 fellow Boeing engineers
(all but one retired) and we talked at length about what we call the
"nightmare liner". We all agreed we will not book a flight on one. The
one engineer still working (at age 74) says the news from inside is not
good, and that there are no quick fixes for the multitude of problems
that the 787 has.

The disaster began with the merger with McDonnell-Douglas
in the mid 90s. The M-D people completely took over the Board and
installed their own people. They had no experience with commercial
airplanes, having done only"cost-plus" military contracting; and there
are worlds of difference between military and commercial airplane design.

Alan Mulally, a life-long Boeing guy and President of
Boeing Commercial Division was against outsourcing. But instead of
making him CEO after he almost single-handedly saved the company in the
early 90s, the Board brought in Harry Stonecipher from
McDonnell-Douglas, who was big on outsourcing. Stonecipher was later
fired for ethics violations. Then the Board brought in Jim McNerney, a
glorified scotch tape salesman from 3M and big proponent of outsourcing,
to develop the 787. (Alan Mulally left to become CEO of Ford and
completely rejuvenated that company.)

McNerney and his bean-counting MBAs thought that instead of
developing the 787 in-house for about $11 billion, they could outsource
the design and building of the airplane for about $6 billion. Right now
they are at $23 billion and counting, three year behind in deliveries,
with a grounded fleet. That's typical for military contracting, so
McNerney and the Board probably think they are doing just fine. But it
will destroy Boeing's commercial business in the same way
McDonnell wrecked Douglas when they took over that company
decades ago.

Boeing had a wonderfully experienced team of designers and
builders who had successfully created the 707, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767,
and 777 in-house, always on-time, and mostly within budget, and with few
problems at introduction. That team is gone, either retired or employed
elsewhere. (I took early retirement after the McD takeover of Boeing
because I knew the new upper management team was clueless.)

The 787 was designed in Russia, India, Japan, and Italy.
The majority of the airplane is built outside the
US in parts and shipped to Seattle or Charleston for assembly.

Gee, what could possibly go wrong? Answer: just about
everything. Because the M-D people that now run Boeing don't believe in
R&D, the structure of the airplane will be tested “in service.”

Commercial airplanes in their lifetime typically make ten
times as many flights and fly ten times as many flight hours as military
airplanes, so the argument that composite structure has been "tested"
because of the experience of composite military airplanes is just so
much BS. So structure is a big issue. The 787 is very overweight. The
all-electric controls have the same lack-of-experience issue that the
structure has.

The good news for me is that the Boeing pension plan is
currently fully funded, although it may not stay that way as the 787
catastrophe develops.


 




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