An ADS-B In Question

On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 3:16:36 PM UTC-8, xcnick wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 8:50:31 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:

Now, if it would only display targets on XCSoar so I wouldn't have
to switch screens...*

My first day with xcsoar. I am on page 16 of the manual and at the bottom is a reference to ADB input and I thought of your post. Post if you figure it out and I will too.

What is there to figure out? There is a very widely used defacto standard protocol for soaring software to receive traffic data. That is the FLARM dataport protocol. That is what XCSoar and all the other products use. If you are in the USA with XCSoar you get "ADS-B" traffic into XCSoar from a PowerFLARM. Connect it up and go... like hundreds of other glider pilots in the USA do with their soaring software or flight computers.

"ADS-B" is a fluffy term, what exactly you think it might mean I cannot guess. But in the case of PowerFLARM and the FLARM dataport protocol it means receiving and displaying traffic data from FLARM, 1090ES Out and PCAS. That is it. No UAT anything, No FIS-B, No TIS-B, No ADS-R, Nothing else of the USA specific soup that is not used elsewhere in the world. And like all other soaring software XCSoar supports the FLARM dataport protocol only, not GDL-90 or Garmin TIS or other formats so it does not work with GA ADS-B receivers. Its a soaring product, designed to work with soaring traffic systems.... i.e. in the USA that would be PowerFLARM.

On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 2:05:27 PM UTC-5, Vaughn Simon wrote:
On 1/13/2016 7:41 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:
Personally, I think that installing an ADS-B IN receiver without an ADS-B OUT transmitter is a really bad idea.

If you only consider traffic information, you have a defensible point.
But an ADS-B receiver gives you more than that.

I live in thunderstorm country, and carry an ADS-B receiver mainly for
in cockpit weather depiction (FIS-B). Whatever traffic information I
might incidentally receive is simply a bonus. My eyeballs and
(secondarily) my PCAS are my main traffic-finding tools.
You are absolutely correct. An ADS-B UAT (not 1090ES) receiver will give you weather data, even if you do not have an ADS-B OUT transmitter. That is certainly worthwhile. I just want to remind people not to rely on the traffic data if they aren't ADS-B OUT equipped.

On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 3:49:25 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:

What is there to figure out?

I apologize for my ignorance. When I rent a power plane I use a phone with a USB thing plugged in. Avare shows some traffic and weather as I fly across a sectional. I was just hoping the USB thing could also show this in xcsoar as I fly across its map. I thought that was what Dan was working towards.. Sorry I don't have a flarm.

On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 5:15:55 PM UTC-8, xcnick wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 3:49:25 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:

What is there to figure out?

I apologize for my ignorance. When I rent a power plane I use a phone with a USB thing plugged in. Avare shows some traffic and weather as I fly across a sectional. I was just hoping the USB thing could also show this in xcsoar as I fly across its map. I thought that was what Dan was working towards. Sorry I don't have a flarm.

You do that in a glider today exactly how you work in a powered aircraft. Same ADS-B hardware, same clients etc. Soaring software does not speak to them.

In your GA airplane unless you have (properly set up) ADS-B Out here is no system that will reliably show you all the traffic data available. If you are using ADS-B In in a power aircraft I hope you have properly set up ADS-B Out, or at a minimum dual-link ADS-B In. I hope it is properly configured, and you know that it was set up to trigger the right ASB-B ground services for whatever receiver you were using -- if you are rolling up to a rental aircraft with basic ADS-B Out it possibly is not properly configured to work with whatever portable receiver you bring along. I expect we will have GA pilots die in mid-airs thinking their ADS-B toys are working when they are not.

It is really simple. If you fly a glider get a PowerFLARM and/or transponder (your choice what is more important). Anything else beyond that is for geeks to play with today. A raspberry pi based receiver likely no place in any cockpit besides playing around. And even then if you want say FIS-B data go get a real Stratus receiver and use your favorite GA app to see that data. You will need to work out where you mount all that stuff in the cockpit.. I'm not sure the hassle is worth it to most glider pilots, I think I used XM Weather on my Garmin 496 in anger once in my glider. If you want full fancy ADS-B everything in a glider then you need ADS-B out, which might cost you over $5k today (for a certified glider). And again, if you are having to ask lots of questions, this bleeding edge stuff is not for you, lots of things are likely to change if ADS-B Out and/or TABS is mandated for gliders. Just wait and see.

This conversation reminds me of one of my favorite movies...

"Common.......learn god dammit, learn!"

http://youtu.be/NHWjlCaIrQo

But there's one minor point of contention in your reply, Darryl. I
don't have Flarm.

My XCSoar runs on a Dell Streak 5. XCSoar is supposed to display
targets from Flarm (which I don't have) following the Flarm dataport
protocol. I can run Avare on my Streak but, to display traffic from my
ADS-B In receiver (open source stuff) I need to also use the Avare
External I/O Plugin which is not compatible with the Streak 5 due to its
old version of Android.

As I have said continually since starting this thread, this is an
experiment for me. Play time, that's all. I could use my Nexus 7 which
will run both XCSoar and Avare (with the plugin), but it's pretty big
and my available space in the LAK is pretty small.

Now if I could just get XCSoar and Avare to run simultaneously with a
split screen, I'd suck it up and mount the Nexus 7. Hmmmmm.... This
looks like a new challenge! I'll report back if I have any success.

Good flying!

Dan

On 1/14/2016 4:49 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 3:16:36 PM UTC-8, xcnick wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 8:50:31 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
Now, if it would only display targets on XCSoar so I wouldn't have
to switch screens...
My first day with xcsoar. I am on page 16 of the manual and at the bottom is a reference to ADB input and I thought of your post. Post if you figure it out and I will too.
What is there to figure out? There is a very widely used defacto standard protocol for soaring software to receive traffic data. That is the FLARM dataport protocol. That is what XCSoar and all the other products use. If you are in the USA with XCSoar you get "ADS-B" traffic into XCSoar from a PowerFLARM. Connect it up and go... like hundreds of other glider pilots in the USA do with their soaring software or flight computers.

"ADS-B" is a fluffy term, what exactly you think it might mean I cannot guess. But in the case of PowerFLARM and the FLARM dataport protocol it means receiving and displaying traffic data from FLARM, 1090ES Out and PCAS. That is it. No UAT anything, No FIS-B, No TIS-B, No ADS-R, Nothing else of the USA specific soup that is not used elsewhere in the world. And like all other soaring software XCSoar supports the FLARM dataport protocol only, not GDL-90 or Garmin TIS or other formats so it does not work with GA ADS-B receivers. Its a soaring product, designed to work with soaring traffic systems... i.e. in the USA that would be PowerFLARM.


--
Dan, 5J

I'm trying, Nick, but for me this is a game so don't expect miracles.

On 1/14/2016 6:15 PM, xcnick wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 3:49:25 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
What is there to figure out?
I apologize for my ignorance. When I rent a power plane I use a phone with a USB thing plugged in. Avare shows some traffic and weather as I fly across a sectional. I was just hoping the USB thing could also show this in xcsoar as I fly across its map. I thought that was what Dan was working towards. Sorry I don't have a flarm.

--
Dan, 5J

Thanks for sharing Dan.

I have the two programs running on a Galaxy S4 and neither AVare or xcsoar appear to support split screen.

It is just one question. No, or buy this and do this. So far switching back and forth is all I can do.

As far as opinions go I do agree that seeing only some traffic and thinking you are seeing it all is very dangerous.

Dan, now you just have to figure out how to get the traffic data from your MRX into XCsoar!

(Or cheat and get a PF�😄)

Good luck, let us know how it works!

Kirk
66

On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 8:20:51 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
But there's one minor point of contention in your reply, Darryl.* I
don't have Flarm.

/snip/
Dan, 5J

Everybody here is well aware you don't have PowerFLARM, you seem to have some objection to it that I've never been able to follow logically.

But you are playing around with an ADS-B SDR toy, and learning about ADS-B, and some of the discussion shows you are learning about the ground-based services that you misunderstood until now. And you'll get a good feel for the carriage and coverage in your area (although a better receiver may give you more range and reliable reception). And that is all seriously great, you will know way more than most pilots about ASD-B. I totally encourage anybody interested to get something like this and set it up and play with it (mostly on the ground) to learn about ADS-B. Preferably with a dual-link receiver.

But when it comes to using an actual "ADS-B" In device in an aircraft, for actual in-flight use, other folks need to be clear in their minds about what exactly "ADS-B" means, what they will/won't receive and why they require ADS-B Out to get full ADS-B services.

The simple answer as always remains USA glider pilots interested in traffic avoidance technology should get a PowerFLARM or transponder or both (choice based on where they fly/what traffic they fly most with). Ideally a Mode S transponder that supports 1090ES or in future, e.g. a Trig TT-22. Everything beyond that for now is more for geeks who want to play around with stuff. And lots of things are likely to change with possible loss of carriage exemptions or TABS regulation... including more affordable/better ADS-B solutions, so for most folks just wait vs. trying too far down the ADS-B path.... but install a transponder or PowerFLARM now as appropriate.