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#61
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Robert,
that it is the cause of the belief system that they monger power. I can't see that I said that. -- Thomas Borchert (EDDH) |
#62
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#63
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:16:52 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote: Sadly, I must conclude that you are sincere. I know this is going down an off-topic sink hole, but I would be interested to hear another pilot (I assume you are a pilot, if you're here?) give a cogent, logical, scientifically-proven defense of your beliefs. Is that possible? About the only thing I could accomplish on those terms is to relegate all belief systems, including atheisms and agnosticisms, to the logical scrap heap. Except *mine*, of course, since *mine* makes perfect sense to *me*. (Except where it doesn't, but like many believers I usually don't worry that I have all the answers to all the questions.) But you've defined away (maybe) the possibility of accepting premises you're not willing to accept, the effort is probably fruitless. BTAIM, the central notion in my own belief system is that no matter what else, prayer works. I'm not talking about this or that form of prayer. I'm not talking about asking for any old thing from God and getting it. There's no magic set of words, and the conclusion is not based on one lightning moment of conversion, it's based on a lifetime of doing it. I'm talking about building a relationship with a real person. Simply that God is real, that He's pretty tolerant of misunderstandings about Him, and that if you want to know more, He'll lead you to the truth. He isn't described completely in any book of scripture I know about, *including* the Bible. He hasn't invested Godlike Flawlessness in any man, to lead us all to Heaven, though I do not deny the notion that He inspires men, and even organizes them, when He has something He wants to show us all. I know that's not much to go on, but personally I don't have stewardship over any other adult's decisions. Can't make you do anything. Can't prove God exists or doesn't exist, since the only experimentation I know about depends very unscientifically on the motivations of the experimenter. The results manifest not in physical phenomena, but in feeling coupled with clear thinking. If it improves the quality of your life and becomes precious to you, God is the source of it. Sorry. Rob -- [You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to educate themselves. -- Orson Scott Card |
#64
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Jay, if you were going about your business and they stopped you on the
street, I'd see your point. But you voluntarily joined a couple of complete strangers for lunch. When you do that, you've got to be prepared for surprises. You may not agree with their beliefs or especially how they expressed them, but this is still America. Personally, I believe what I believe and if anyone tries to change my mind, I either listen or move on. My guess is that they got you thinking about something you don't want to deal with. -- Gene Seibel Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html Because I fly, I envy no one. Soon, both men were quoting scripture to us, chapter and verse, "proving" how "easy" it was to be "saved" by the "true Lord, Jesus", as opposed to the heathen gods of the other religions. By now we were both growing incredibly uncomfortable, and I had that horrible "this must be a nightmare" feeling rising in the pit of my stomach. Not knowing whether to bolt or tell them to f*ck off, I just sat there silently, dumbly smiling at them in disbelief. |
#65
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:55:30 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote: Of course, if indeed I should end up standing in front of St. Peter or Jesus on Judgement Day, it will be a major "Oops"-moment. ;-) Of course, would a good God condemn you to eternal damnation for making a 75-year mistake? Nope. The quasi-Christian doctrines of "instant Hell" are false, IMO. (So is the Aristotlean notion of eternity; we humans don't have the best picture of the topology of the universe, after all...) I think if Thomas is willing to *say* "Oops" at that moment, that'll speak very favorably to him. Rob -- [You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to educate themselves. -- Orson Scott Card |
#66
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:07:43 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote: nor be required to give away your airplane and all your other worldly posessions (Matthew 19:16-21. See also Luke 12:33) nor sell your daughter into slavery (Exodus 21:7-10) I'm always impressed with how you guys can DO that. How the HECK do you remember the verses and chapters in such detail? Search engines. I can do it, too! (And, part of my upbringing included being required to commit 160 passages of scripture to memory long enough to recite it back to a teacher.) But what you've probably seen here, since it's very similar to many of the atheist missives I've seen trying to steer people clear of the Bible through a combination of out-of-context quoting and the fallacy of misleading vividness, is paraphrased from something that's been around for a long, long time. Rob -- [You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to educate themselves. -- Orson Scott Card |
#67
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Exactly the tactic I take with un announced and unwanted salesmen.
I'm here to see the person in charge of maintenence supplies. "Tough" Huh? What do you mean? Can I see him? "No" Well, I need his name. "Tough" Can I get his name? "If he had wanted something you are selling, he would have contacted you and you'd already know his name" But he called wanting some information. "If he called you, you should know his name." I didn't write it down. "Why would I let my maintenence man buy something from a man that can't write?" I mean I forgot to write it down. "Why would I let my maintenence man buy something from a man with no memory?" Can I see him or at least talk to him? "I asume that you can see, so if I let you talk to him you no doubt would be able to see him, unless he requires you to be blind folded but you still can't talk to him" Why won't you let me see him? "Because he earns about 10 times as much as your trailer trash scumbag ass does and if I let you see him, you will be costing more money than what ever you're trying to peddle costs!" Can I leave my card? "No, did I mention that you are on private property?" What do you mean? "This is private property, you weren't invited, so you're traspassing" Huh? "Do you have a village solicitation permit?" Huh? "Did you see the sign on the edge of town that says permit required for solicitation?" ....and on and on and on.... Sometimes it's the funnest part of my day. -- Jim Burns III Remove "nospam" to reply "Dean Wilkinson" wrote in message m... Hi Jay, Been there, done that. Back in college I had several encounters like you describe. The first time it was almost an unreal experience and I felt the ear burning embarassement that you describe. After that, I learned to be rude as hell to people like that. I have even begun to take pleasure in saying as absurd and inflamatory statements as possible to mess with them. Be creative, it can be a gas. Don't be afraid to be outlandish in your statements or behavior, but above all else be as contrary and contradicatory as possible! Dean |
#68
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"Robert Perkins" wrote in message
Fights and wars have broken out over things other than religion, and no society goes to war for that reason alone. It's too much work! I don't know. If a modern (albeit minor) war could be waged over a soccer match, I'm thinking that religion would be a far more serious matter in societies of centuries ago. -- John T http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer __________ |
#69
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:21:26 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote: I guess I had assumed that anyone smart enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers. The best proselyting is done by showing the example of a happy life. There is, IMO, no inconsistency to be found by finding a confessed Protestant in a casino. For so many denominations the only requirement is that little prayer. Plenty of Baptist grammas go to Vegas, I think. I still have a hard time believing that it wasn't some sort of a "Candid Camera" set up, but I'm afraid they really, honestly thought they were doing the right thing. Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do? You, in your cordial Midwestern way, fed a pair of Christian proseletyzers your time and attention. You gave them an impression of interest that they, in their zeal, failed to notice was more than just good Midwestern friendliness. They take advantage of that, and it's certainly not your fault. What I usually do is raise the ante. I've got a pretty strong set of beliefs, so I listen to what they have to say and then make sure they know that I'm very committed to my own belief system, and would they like to know more about that? Another thing that works nicely is, "I know you believe that, guys, but I think your premise is simply incorrect and unprovable, and what I'm looking for must be provable." If not, then, "I guess our conversation is concluded, gentlemen. Have a nice flight home," and off we go. Rob -- [You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to educate themselves. -- Orson Scott Card |
#70
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:48:49 -0500, "John Gaquin"
wrote: What chip am I carrying? Re-read your own post. The whole tone is one of over-reaction. Is not. I would have had a very similar initial reaction to that kind of witnessing. It's rare enough that it's a surprise whenever I find it. Rob -- [You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to educate themselves. -- Orson Scott Card |
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