To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...

Ian

Check out this site for one answer to your question.

http://www.beepworld.de/members28/onkelmaggus/

Click on the English page.

Bob

bagmaker wrote:

does the tow charge cover all the a/c costs, like insurance, maintenance,
replacement after time etc?

Everything. The tow plane just pays itself, everything included. The
calculation is done on the basis of the estimated total hours over the
year and recalculated and adjusted every spring.

We charge per minute, airborne to touchdown of the tow plane. With this
method, the glider pilot is absolutely free to decide where and how high
he wants to tow. (We have several release points, depending on the
weather, the time of day, where you want to fly and whether you want to
fight in your first climb or just release and go. And of course all our
gliders are radio equipped, so we can direct the tow pilot. (Such as in
"Try that big cloud at 10 o'clock."))

We expect the tow pilots to make the round trip as short as possible,
and they do their best. Of course there are some who do better than
others, and sometimes they manage to find thermals to accelerate the
climb, and sometimes they do not. We believe that it averages out over
the year and that charging per minute is the most transparent and
flexible method.

shawn wrote:
Frank Whiteley wrote:

Actually, a winch launch to 2000agl uses very little fuel. Getting to
the gliderport will use far more.

Solar cells charging batteries all week for the electric winch, and ride
your bike to the airport. Save the gas for the retrieves :-)

Nice idea, but the price of solar cells had better drop lots.
Either that of a big win at Vegas is necessary.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Ian wrote:
On 21 Oct, 01:03, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:

As frank pointed out, winches comsume very, very little energy. Roughly
1kW/Hr or a liter of diesel which could easily be biodiesel. An electric
winch, if it could be powered from the grid, would comsume less than 10
cents worth of power per launch.

I'm bored, so thought I'd play with some numbers ...

I've launched ASH-25's to 1,600' on the wire. At 750kg that's a PE
gain of 750kg x 10 N/kg x 500m = 3.75MJ. There's also a PE gain in
half a ton of wire rope going up 250m: 500kg x 10 N/kg x 250m =
1.25MJ. KE is small in comparison, so that's a nice round 5MJ per
launch.

That's 1.4kWh, but allowing for 85% efficiency in the electric motor
you'd need 1.6kWh. Typical domestic prices here are around 12.5p /
kWh, so that's a nice cheap 20p/launch.

The downside is that you need that energy awful fast. 5MJ over 50
seconds is 100 kW (probably what 200bhp diesel winches get to wire
after transmission losses). That gives two problems.

First of all, you need a very hefty supply. On 415V 3-phase AC, and
assuming a 0.85 power factor, that's a line current of 100 kW /
[sqrt(3) x 415 x 0.85] = 163A. That's definitely non-trivial.

Secondly, you wouldn't get the electricity on a domestic tariff.
Industrial contracts take account of peak power as well as energy
used: the club would need a 100kW supply infrastructure despite only
using, on average, a tiny fraction of that capacity. The power company
will want to recoup the cost of the supply, and that will push the
price up considerably.

The logical alternative would be to use a local energy storage
facility: a great big Li-ion battery bank in the winch would help a
lot. With a 20% service factor (one launch every five minutes) the
average power requirement would come down to 20kW. Still too much for
a standard domestic supply, but a 40A 3-phase supply is pretty
standard. The downside there is that the batteries and associated
supply kit would be horribly expensive.

I believe Tost used to offer a (mobile?) electric winch, and I'd be
interested to know what the power supply arrangements were. As far as
I can see they don't do winches of any sort any more.

I'm sure electric winches could work very well, but I think they'd do
best as fixed installations. Are any in use?

The German-made ESW-2B Electrostartwinde has a peak output of 220 Kw and
consists largely of a big bank of heavy duty truck-type lead-acid
batteries to buffer the power supply. It claims all day service from a
12-20 Kw power supply.

My club looked into it and came up with a similar launch cost to your
calculation. The killer was the cost of wiring up the various winch
stations on our (triangular) field. 22/04 accounts for virtually all
launches, 34/16 is used with strong N/S winds and 09/27 is used about
twice a year when wind and ground conditions require it. A lower cost
approach would involve using a diesel trailer generator set. With a
generator we could only wire 22/04 and 34 (the winch point for 34 is on
the cable run to the 22 winch station). If other winch stations were
used the winch would be run from the generator.

With the buffering batteries I think a fairly modest generator could do
the job. New 20 kw diesel trailer sets sell at around $14,000 and I see
that eBay has a 10 Kw unit with a "Buy it Now' price set at $1000. OK,
its a bit small, but the price indicates what's available.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

John Smith wrote:
We charge per minute, airborne to touchdown of the tow plane. With this
method, the glider pilot is absolutely free to decide where and how high
he wants to tow. (We have several release points, depending on the
weather, the time of day, where you want to fly and whether you want to
fight in your first climb or just release and go. And of course all our
gliders are radio equipped, so we can direct the tow pilot. (Such as in
"Try that big cloud at 10 o'clock."))

We expect the tow pilots to make the round trip as short as possible,
and they do their best. Of course there are some who do better than
others, and sometimes they manage to find thermals to accelerate the
climb, and sometimes they do not. We believe that it averages out over
the year and that charging per minute is the most transparent and
flexible method.

That is an interesting way to pay, although it seems unfortunate that I'd
have to pay extra for a go around if one should occur. My club, like most
(I think), charges by altitude and nothing more, except for exceptional
circumstances like aero retrieve. I think there's a lot to be said for
this, but in the back of my mind I always thought it was slightly unfair
that a fully loaded two-place trainer going to 3000ft on a hot summer day
got charged the same amount of money as a light single seater going to
3000ft on a nice cool day.

Anyway, enough commentary, I have an actual question: roughly what do your
costs work out to for, say, 1500, 2000, and 3000ft tows? Obviously it'll
depend a lot on conditions but I imagine you have some idea of what your
tow will cost before you launch even if it's not exact.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

On Oct 21, 10:07 am, Michael Ash wrote:
John Smith wrote:
We charge per minute, airborne to touchdown of the tow plane. With this
method, the glider pilot is absolutely free to decide where and how high
he wants to tow. (We have several release points, depending on the
weather, the time of day, where you want to fly and whether you want to
fight in your first climb or just release and go. And of course all our
gliders are radio equipped, so we can direct the tow pilot. (Such as in
"Try that big cloud at 10 o'clock."))

We expect the tow pilots to make the round trip as short as possible,
and they do their best. Of course there are some who do better than
others, and sometimes they manage to find thermals to accelerate the
climb, and sometimes they do not. We believe that it averages out over
the year and that charging per minute is the most transparent and
flexible method.

That is an interesting way to pay, although it seems unfortunate that I'd
have to pay extra for a go around if one should occur. My club, like most
(I think), charges by altitude and nothing more, except for exceptional
circumstances like aero retrieve. I think there's a lot to be said for
this, but in the back of my mind I always thought it was slightly unfair
that a fully loaded two-place trainer going to 3000ft on a hot summer day
got charged the same amount of money as a light single seater going to
3000ft on a nice cool day.

Anyway, enough commentary, I have an actual question: roughly what do your
costs work out to for, say, 1500, 2000, and 3000ft tows? Obviously it'll
depend a lot on conditions but I imagine you have some idea of what your
tow will cost before you launch even if it's not exact.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

Wear and tear on low tows is higher. Several clubs have a hookup
charges to account for this. One large club I know something about,
waives their active 'ops teams' members the hookup charge as an
incentive for their service. The 'ops teams' work together regularly
as scheduled. IIRC, hookup is $10/tow. So if you fly often, the
value of your service time is pretty good. IANACPA, but fee waivers
may be easier to handle than credits in a financial sense (no 1099-
misc at the end of the year?).

Another example, $8 hookup, $1.00/100ft, so a 2000ft tow is $28.00, up
from $0.85/100ft 18 months ago. Tows above 9500msl or wave tows are
charged at the service rate. This former rate was based on $125/hour
service rate with approximately $5/tow profit over tow costs,
including insurance, maintenance, tow ropes, rings, etc. The latter
rate reflects increased fuel costs. Commercial tow pilots are paid a
show up credit and small credit per launch. The engine reserve is set
aside at some rate based on 2000tbo and 350tach hours per year. Last
engine service was at about 2450 hours and cost about $35,000 for 0
time, 250hp stc, and new prop, including remove and replace. The
funds were in the engine reserve set aside. Result is about one more
tow per tach hour on same fuel burn, which meant no large adjustment
was needed to tow rates as fuel charges increased. Of course this
needs analysis at least annually. Presently, I'm pretty sure profit
is zero at the moment, though I don't think there's a subsidy unless
tow plane hours are under 350 for the year. There is no sinking fund
for fabric or other contingencies. I think the transponder was
expensed to the club.

You just have to decide what you want to include in the cost of towing
Set aside funds
Airframe reserve
Engine reserve
Maintenance reserve
Contingency reserve
Insurance

Consumables
Fuel
Oil
Tires
Brakes
Tow ropes
Weak links
Tow rings

Other
Tow pilot remuneration
Upgrades

Then looks at your history and trends and come up with the numbers and
try and forecast for the next year, 2 years, 3 years, and see if your
tows are artificially low or sensible. Artificially low priced tows
may mean that pilots are towing higher than really necessary. This
lowers the launch rate, and believe me, there's nothing that matters
more to the private owner than launch rate. Some clubs have thus
banned or limited training tows during 'soaring hours' or made other
'creative solutions'. The approach to towing and pricing of same
within a club includes more than just covering the cost.

Frank Whiteley

Michael Ash wrote:

That is an interesting way to pay, although it seems unfortunate that I'd
have to pay extra for a go around if one should occur.

That's life. There is no such thing as a pricing system which is fair
for everybody in all circumstances.

My club, like most (I think), charges by altitude and nothing more,

Most clubs I know charge by time. I guess this is regional culture.

Anyway, enough commentary, I have an actual question: roughly what do your
costs work out to for, say, 1500, 2000, and 3000ft tows? Obviously it'll
depend a lot on conditions but I imagine you have some idea of what your
tow will cost before you launch even if it's not exact.

Well, we try very hard not to think about it... :-/

Seriously, it's hard to tell. There is no such thing as a tow to 1500,
2000 and 3000ft at our site (except for student training). There are
tows to certain known or estimated thermals.

The cheapest tow is to a hill right besides the airfield. On reasonable
days you'll find a thermal there on one side or the other. This tow will
be to approximately 2000ft. (You decide when to release: If you feel the
thermals are strong and reliable and forming low, release earlier, if
you think that you have to try and and search and work weak 100 fpm
thermals which form only at altitude, release later.) A "normal" tow
there is about $35 to $40. Caveat: Those thermals form somewhat late in
the day and you will lose a lot of time if you want to go cross country.

If you want to launch earlier and/or plan to do a big flight, you are
better off towing to some known thermically active regions farther away.
This will cost you about twice as much, but not because of altitude, but
because of distance. You see, the "altitude price system" just wouldn't
work here.

"Frank Whiteley" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Oct 21, 10:07 am, Michael Ash wrote:
John Smith wrote:
We charge per minute, airborne to touchdown of the tow plane. With this
method, the glider pilot is absolutely free to decide where and how
high
he wants to tow. (We have several release points, depending on the
weather, the time of day, where you want to fly and whether you want to
fight in your first climb or just release and go. And of course all our
gliders are radio equipped, so we can direct the tow pilot. (Such as in
"Try that big cloud at 10 o'clock."))

We expect the tow pilots to make the round trip as short as possible,
and they do their best. Of course there are some who do better than
others, and sometimes they manage to find thermals to accelerate the
climb, and sometimes they do not. We believe that it averages out over
the year and that charging per minute is the most transparent and
flexible method.

That is an interesting way to pay, although it seems unfortunate that I'd
have to pay extra for a go around if one should occur. My club, like most
(I think), charges by altitude and nothing more, except for exceptional
circumstances like aero retrieve. I think there's a lot to be said for
this, but in the back of my mind I always thought it was slightly unfair
that a fully loaded two-place trainer going to 3000ft on a hot summer day
got charged the same amount of money as a light single seater going to
3000ft on a nice cool day.

Anyway, enough commentary, I have an actual question: roughly what do
your
costs work out to for, say, 1500, 2000, and 3000ft tows? Obviously it'll
depend a lot on conditions but I imagine you have some idea of what your
tow will cost before you launch even if it's not exact.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

Wear and tear on low tows is higher. Several clubs have a hookup
charges to account for this. One large club I know something about,
waives their active 'ops teams' members the hookup charge as an
incentive for their service. The 'ops teams' work together regularly
as scheduled. IIRC, hookup is $10/tow. So if you fly often, the
value of your service time is pretty good. IANACPA, but fee waivers
may be easier to handle than credits in a financial sense (no 1099-
misc at the end of the year?).

Another example, $8 hookup, $1.00/100ft, so a 2000ft tow is $28.00, up
from $0.85/100ft 18 months ago. Tows above 9500msl or wave tows are
charged at the service rate. This former rate was based on $125/hour
service rate with approximately $5/tow profit over tow costs,
including insurance, maintenance, tow ropes, rings, etc. The latter
rate reflects increased fuel costs. Commercial tow pilots are paid a
show up credit and small credit per launch. The engine reserve is set
aside at some rate based on 2000tbo and 350tach hours per year. Last
engine service was at about 2450 hours and cost about $35,000 for 0
time, 250hp stc, and new prop, including remove and replace. The
funds were in the engine reserve set aside. Result is about one more
tow per tach hour on same fuel burn, which meant no large adjustment
was needed to tow rates as fuel charges increased. Of course this
needs analysis at least annually. Presently, I'm pretty sure profit
is zero at the moment, though I don't think there's a subsidy unless
tow plane hours are under 350 for the year. There is no sinking fund
for fabric or other contingencies. I think the transponder was
expensed to the club.

You just have to decide what you want to include in the cost of towing
Set aside funds
Airframe reserve
Engine reserve
Maintenance reserve
Contingency reserve
Insurance

Consumables
Fuel
Oil
Tires
Brakes
Tow ropes
Weak links
Tow rings

Other
Tow pilot remuneration
Upgrades

Then looks at your history and trends and come up with the numbers and
try and forecast for the next year, 2 years, 3 years, and see if your
tows are artificially low or sensible. Artificially low priced tows
may mean that pilots are towing higher than really necessary. This
lowers the launch rate, and believe me, there's nothing that matters
more to the private owner than launch rate. Some clubs have thus
banned or limited training tows during 'soaring hours' or made other
'creative solutions'. The approach to towing and pricing of same
within a club includes more than just covering the cost.

Frank Whiteley


This is the kind of logic I used to use to try to convince my wife owning an
airplane made economic sense since it "paid for itself".

The members are the club. The club is the members and it's a non-profit.
The members aren't 'customers'. If the club charges the members the true
cost of operating the tug then it is, in effect, charging itself. A tug is
a cost center, not a profit center. The fact that full cost of the tows are
paid for by the individual members doesn't make it a 'break even'
proposition.

If the tug costs the members big money then, since the members are the club,
it costs the club big money. It's financial shell game to say the tug is
a"break even" operation.

Put all the costs in one 'bucket' and take a hard look at it. You may fine
one reason why soaring isn't growing.

Bill Daniels

On Oct 21, 1:12 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
"Frank Whiteley" wrote in message

oups.com...



On Oct 21, 10:07 am, Michael Ash wrote:
John Smith wrote:
We charge per minute, airborne to touchdown of the tow plane. With this
method, the glider pilot is absolutely free to decide where and how
high
he wants to tow. (We have several release points, depending on the
weather, the time of day, where you want to fly and whether you want to
fight in your first climb or just release and go. And of course all our
gliders are radio equipped, so we can direct the tow pilot. (Such as in
"Try that big cloud at 10 o'clock."))

We expect the tow pilots to make the round trip as short as possible,
and they do their best. Of course there are some who do better than
others, and sometimes they manage to find thermals to accelerate the
climb, and sometimes they do not. We believe that it averages out over
the year and that charging per minute is the most transparent and
flexible method.

That is an interesting way to pay, although it seems unfortunate that I'd
have to pay extra for a go around if one should occur. My club, like most
(I think), charges by altitude and nothing more, except for exceptional
circumstances like aero retrieve. I think there's a lot to be said for
this, but in the back of my mind I always thought it was slightly unfair
that a fully loaded two-place trainer going to 3000ft on a hot summer day
got charged the same amount of money as a light single seater going to
3000ft on a nice cool day.

Anyway, enough commentary, I have an actual question: roughly what do
your
costs work out to for, say, 1500, 2000, and 3000ft tows? Obviously it'll
depend a lot on conditions but I imagine you have some idea of what your
tow will cost before you launch even if it's not exact.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

Wear and tear on low tows is higher. Several clubs have a hookup
charges to account for this. One large club I know something about,
waives their active 'ops teams' members the hookup charge as an
incentive for their service. The 'ops teams' work together regularly
as scheduled. IIRC, hookup is $10/tow. So if you fly often, the
value of your service time is pretty good. IANACPA, but fee waivers
may be easier to handle than credits in a financial sense (no 1099-
misc at the end of the year?).

Another example, $8 hookup, $1.00/100ft, so a 2000ft tow is $28.00, up
from $0.85/100ft 18 months ago. Tows above 9500msl or wave tows are
charged at the service rate. This former rate was based on $125/hour
service rate with approximately $5/tow profit over tow costs,
including insurance, maintenance, tow ropes, rings, etc. The latter
rate reflects increased fuel costs. Commercial tow pilots are paid a
show up credit and small credit per launch. The engine reserve is set
aside at some rate based on 2000tbo and 350tach hours per year. Last
engine service was at about 2450 hours and cost about $35,000 for 0
time, 250hp stc, and new prop, including remove and replace. The
funds were in the engine reserve set aside. Result is about one more
tow per tach hour on same fuel burn, which meant no large adjustment
was needed to tow rates as fuel charges increased. Of course this
needs analysis at least annually. Presently, I'm pretty sure profit
is zero at the moment, though I don't think there's a subsidy unless
tow plane hours are under 350 for the year. There is no sinking fund
for fabric or other contingencies. I think the transponder was
expensed to the club.

You just have to decide what you want to include in the cost of towing
Set aside funds
Airframe reserve
Engine reserve
Maintenance reserve
Contingency reserve
Insurance

Consumables
Fuel
Oil
Tires
Brakes
Tow ropes
Weak links
Tow rings

Other
Tow pilot remuneration
Upgrades

Then looks at your history and trends and come up with the numbers and
try and forecast for the next year, 2 years, 3 years, and see if your
tows are artificially low or sensible. Artificially low priced tows
may mean that pilots are towing higher than really necessary. This
lowers the launch rate, and believe me, there's nothing that matters
more to the private owner than launch rate. Some clubs have thus
banned or limited training tows during 'soaring hours' or made other
'creative solutions'. The approach to towing and pricing of same
within a club includes more than just covering the cost.

Frank Whiteley

This is the kind of logic I used to use to try to convince my wife owning an
airplane made economic sense since it "paid for itself".

The members are the club. The club is the members and it's a non-profit.
The members aren't 'customers'. If the club charges the members the true
cost of operating the tug then it is, in effect, charging itself. A tug is
a cost center, not a profit center. The fact that full cost of the tows are
paid for by the individual members doesn't make it a 'break even'
proposition.

If the tug costs the members big money then, since the members are the club,
it costs the club big money. It's financial shell game to say the tug is
a"break even" operation.

Put all the costs in one 'bucket' and take a hard look at it. You may fine
one reason why soaring isn't growing.

Bill Daniels

A club is also a member services organization and there's nothing that
prevents a non-profit organization from making a profit. It's what
you do with the profit that matters, that is, there can be no private
benefit and the profit must go towards that stated purpose of the
organization. Some clubs offer glider rides to the public for a fee
as a means of capital accumulation. This is fine as long as it's
properly done. The NFL is a non-profit organization.

If a member avails themselves of specific services (assuming they have
some choice), then any excess over costs benefits the membership as a
whole. In my opinion, most services should be at least revenue
neutral, though subsidies through dues are likely pretty common (many
clubs do not charge extra for glider use but limit seat time to 1 or 2
hours). Careful planning for fixed costs, operating costs,
replacement costs, and a vision of where a club wants to be in 5, 10,
or 20 years should allow for some progress. Too many clubs use knee-
jerk response management however. I know of one club operating at the
same field as a commercial operator. If the club tow pilot does not
show up on scheduled club days, members take tows from the commercial
operator. It's my understanding that the member is then credited back
the difference between the price of a club tow and the commercial
tow. Furthermore, I understand the tow pilots are the only members
that get a vote and pay no dues. Now, I'm not trying to tell any club
how to conduct its business, but this doesn't seem a particularly
appropriate way to use club capital. More curiously, how did such a
policy develop? That club also had sold one glider and was
considering selling a second due to underutilization. Training had
dwindled to one day per week. What's really going on there?

Now, were a club to offer a diversity of launch means, ground launch
and aero tow, as equally available, then bucket subsidies would
probably need to come into the business model for getting aloft.
Certainly there would be pressure from those wanting affordable aero
tows.

Frank Whiteley

Bill Daniels wrote:

If the tug costs the members big money then, since the members are the club,
it costs the club big money. It's financial shell game to say the tug is
a"break even" operation.

I don't get your logic. *Somebody* has to pay the tug. If it isn't the
pilot behind the tug, then it's the club as a whole. Do you advocate
that the non-flying pilots should subsidize the flying ones? Do you
advocate low tow rates subsidized by high club membership fees? Do you
think high membership fees would lead to a growth in club membership?