Lost comms after radar vector

This all strikes me as highly academic. The only likely reason for losing
both comms is an electrical failure. In that case you're on the mag
compass and dead reckoning, if you're in IMC. The only good reason for
knowing the official lost comm procedure is to pass your instrument
oral.

John

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:vHfPb.91560$5V2.229832@attbi_s53...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote...

How do I navigate from SUDDS to MKE?

I was under the impression you were an instrument-rated pilot as well as
an ATC
controller...

Direct, using the time/heading/distance from your preflight planning.
[From the
question, I assume MKE doesn't have a VOR at the field. I'm in Seattle,
and
don't have charts or other pubs for the MKE area, so I'll fast-forward you
to
WA.]

If I was enroute to BFI (Boeing Field, WA, which does not have a
co-located
VOR), I would know to look up the nearby NAVAIDS in the Airport/Facility
Directory, and find that BFI is at the SEA 341/5.7. I would plot the
course and
distance from my previous waypoint (e.g., TAGOR, on V 120, SEA 069/16) on
a
Sectional, and transfer it (approx 291/17) to my kneeboard Nav card.

In the airplane, if I lost comm prior to TAGOR, all I have to do is fly
direct
from TAGOR to the SEA 341/5.7 (cross-checking with the PARKK NDB at the
field,
if I don't have DME -- I could do this as an NDB hold, too, but I am
assuming
that isn't an option at MKE), using the preplanned heading and time,
adjusted
for any wind corrections I'd been using enroute to TAGOR.

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:vHfPb.91560$5V2.229832@attbi_s53...
Direct, using the time/heading/distance from your preflight planning.
[From the
question, I assume MKE doesn't have a VOR at the field. I'm in Seattle,
and
don't have charts or other pubs for the MKE area, so I'll fast-forward you
to
WA.]

Is there such a thing as a holding pattern without a holding fix that can be
identified each time around?

"John Harper" wrote...
This all strikes me as highly academic. The only likely reason for losing
both comms is an electrical failure. In that case you're on the mag
compass and dead reckoning, if you're in IMC. The only good reason for
knowing the official lost comm procedure is to pass your instrument
oral.

I disagree.

I have flown many single-radio airplanes IFR. I have had that single radio fail
a few times... I have flown several airplanes with 2 radios installed, one of
which wasn't working on preflight. I have had that remaining radio fail a few
times. I have flown several airplanes with marginal radios. I have temporarily
lost comm many times...

I have had a few electrical failures, but they were in airplanes with backup
generators and backup instruments, and/or in VMC.

If you don't know what's "official," how do you know when you're following it or
deviating from it?

"Gary Drescher" wrote...
Direct, using the time/heading/distance from your preflight planning. [From
the
question, I assume MKE doesn't have a VOR at the field. I'm in Seattle, and
don't have charts or other pubs for the MKE area, so I'll fast-forward you to
WA.]

Is there such a thing as a holding pattern without a holding fix that can be
identified each time around?

I don't think so...

First, if you accepted the clearance, you accepted the fact you could navigate
to each waypoint or fix on that clearance, using installed equipment.

Second, many fixes can be identified in several ways -- GPS, FMS, RNAV, VOR/DME,
VOR/VOR, DME/DME, VOR/NDB... If you can't find it using primary means, use your
backups.

If you can't ID the fix because of equipment failure, you are in a situation
beyond simple lost comm.

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:lahPb.93229$nt4.238743@attbi_s51...
"Gary Drescher" wrote...
Direct, using the time/heading/distance from your preflight planning.
[From
the
question, I assume MKE doesn't have a VOR at the field. I'm in
Seattle, and
don't have charts or other pubs for the MKE area, so I'll fast-forward
you to
WA.]

Is there such a thing as a holding pattern without a holding fix that
can be
identified each time around?

I don't think so...

First, if you accepted the clearance, you accepted the fact you could
navigate
to each waypoint or fix on that clearance, using installed equipment.

Sure, but if the fix in question is your destination airport and your
clearance limit, then you might have equipment that lets you navigate to
that fix by a published approach to the airport (say, via an off-field NDB
or VOR), but not have any way to identify the fix as a holding fix.

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote...

Sure, but if the fix in question is your destination airport and your
clearance limit, then you might have equipment that lets you navigate to
that fix by a published approach to the airport (say, via an off-field NDB
or VOR), but not have any way to identify the fix as a holding fix.

If you can navigate to a place once, you can do it again. If your navigational
ability is so degraded that you cannot find your position via VOR/DME, VOR/VOR,
VOR/NDB, or similar means, then you probably should declare an emergency and
navigate any way you can to any place you can identify.

In the situation I presented at BFI, the easiest means of determining the fix of
"BFI" was via an off-field VOR and on-field NDB (I would have used the SEA
VOR/DME if the OP had indicated he had DME available. The NDB was the actual
fix, but the crossing VOR radial was a very good means of confirming it. I
could have done it by off-field VOR/NDB or NDB/NDB, but not with as much
accuracy. Note that ALL of these were after departing a known fix determined by
VOR/VOR, 17 miles away, during which time a reasonable wind estimate could be
made.

Not all IFR flight is as easy as "follow the magenta line" in a "glass" cockpit,
or looking at a moving map display on a Garmin 530. Once in a while it's a good
idea to practice your basic instrument work -- that which you had to demonstrate
on your check ride.

I guess I was assuming two good working radios. I too have flown
planes with only one radio (all the acro planes I fly for a start)
or two ancient radios where on a good day one of them was
working well enough. But I wouldn't take them into IMC.

In my case my plane has dual Garmins (and nothing else except
the ADF) so if both comms failed it's just about impossible that
I'd have VOR, DME or GPS. Guess it's a good job I practice
NDB approaches regularly.

Of course my comment is a little tongue in cheek - yes, an instrument
pilot should know the official procedure, but they'll probably never
apply the bit about waiting until your planned arrival time.

John

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:18hPb.93226$nt4.238742@attbi_s51...
"John Harper" wrote...
This all strikes me as highly academic. The only likely reason for
losing
both comms is an electrical failure. In that case you're on the mag
compass and dead reckoning, if you're in IMC. The only good reason for
knowing the official lost comm procedure is to pass your instrument
oral.

I disagree.

I have flown many single-radio airplanes IFR. I have had that single
radio fail
a few times... I have flown several airplanes with 2 radios installed,
one of
which wasn't working on preflight. I have had that remaining radio fail a
few
times. I have flown several airplanes with marginal radios. I have
temporarily
lost comm many times...

I have had a few electrical failures, but they were in airplanes with
backup
generators and backup instruments, and/or in VMC.

If you don't know what's "official," how do you know when you're following
it or
deviating from it?

In article .net, "Steven P.
McNicoll" writes:

Well, what do you think is better for you, forcing the controller to step
away from his scope several times every minute in order to be able to
communicate with the aircraft that are potentially in your way, or returning
your transponder to it's previously assigned code?

No, Steve, I don't think the controller should have to jump thru hoops several
times a minute, either. The SYSTEM should allow you to disable MY 7600 after
you have seen and heard it and let me continue the code and still be armed for
another if it occurs (surely you don't get many overlaping emergencys). It
just seems that to put in 7600 and then return to my original (requiring me to
remember it) in 30 seconds is unnecessary load at a critical time.

Chuck

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:_biPb.92428$5V2.241427@attbi_s53...
"Gary Drescher" wrote...

Sure, but if the fix in question is your destination airport and your
clearance limit, then you might have equipment that lets you navigate to
that fix by a published approach to the airport (say, via an off-field
NDB
or VOR), but not have any way to identify the fix as a holding fix.

If you can navigate to a place once, you can do it again.

Let's say you lack RNAV, and your destination airport has an off-field VOR
approach, no DME, and no other nearby navaid. How would you propose to use
that airport as a holding fix if you're going to hold for an hour?

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote...

Let's say you lack RNAV, and your destination airport has an off-field VOR
approach, no DME, and no other nearby navaid. How would you propose to use
that airport as a holding fix if you're going to hold for an hour?

I don't!

As I wrote previously, the decision to hold or not is situation-dependent. The
situation you describe would prompt me to squawk 7700/7600 and shoot the
approach on arrival.