Best Software and Hardware for Turn Area Task?

I am currently flying with a Cambridge GPS NAV and a L-Nav. I would like to up
grade or add equipment to help me fly the Turn Area Task. What works well and
what are the important features that can aid in making correct decisions while
flying the Turn Area Task?

Bill Snead
6W

On 07 Aug 2003 03:38:28 GMT, (Snead1) wrote:

I am currently flying with a Cambridge GPS NAV and a L-Nav. I would like to up
grade or add equipment to help me fly the Turn Area Task. What works well and
what are the important features that can aid in making correct decisions while
flying the Turn Area Task?

Bill Snead
6W


A pair of dice, roulette wheel or random number generator would be an
appropriate decision making aid for this task.

Seriously, when you think about it this task is very difficult to
anything rational about. You are going to an unknown point in an
area, the decision as to where to turn depends on a time calculation
with a large error band(the task demands calculations from the pilot
i.e.how long it will take to do the task that the task setter doesn't
want to do) and later in the flight your options close off
particularly if the weather gets better.
Some solutions involve moving the turnpoint on the flight computer
screen, a hazardous activity given this task's opportunity to create
high speed crossing tracks.
A moving map helps only somewhat. Our B2000 handles this moderately
well with a combination of director graphics and simple moving map.
We are working on a new display graphic idea which will help.

Mike Borgelt
Borgelt Instruments.

(Snead1) wrote in message ...
I am currently flying with a Cambridge GPS NAV and a L-Nav. I would like to up
grade or add equipment to help me fly the Turn Area Task. What works well and
what are the important features that can aid in making correct decisions while
flying the Turn Area Task?

Bill Snead
6W

Bill,

You need to have a good prediction of your finish time based on
current ring setting, task distance left to go, average speed up to
now, and current wind estimate. I also find a graphic depiction of the
turn areas to be very useful.

In addition you need the ability to move the turnpoint in the area
before you reach it and to easily reset it to the point that you
actually turn at. Of course those turnpoint moves should result in a
new estimate of time to complete the task.

Look carefully at candidate systems to see if they support these
features. There are different methods for moving the turnpoint, some
systems do not use the wind estimate to calculate the finish time,
some systems do not support the much needed "turn now" function.

Andy (GY)

Bill,

WinPilot fully supports this task in addition to 2 cylinder start gates. It
also has a tasking feature that can move the point in the turn area as you
fly, and update your task distance and ETA.

Please see my website for information or call.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com
530-905-0062


"Snead1" wrote in message
...
I am currently flying with a Cambridge GPS NAV and a L-Nav. I would like
to up
grade or add equipment to help me fly the Turn Area Task. What works well
and
what are the important features that can aid in making correct decisions
while
flying the Turn Area Task?

Bill Snead
6W

We are working on a new display graphic idea which will help.

You ought to work on some informative marketing material for your website.
The only product info on the B2000 there is the manual which is not the best
way to get an overview of the product.

First, I have to say the "dumb-ass" is my own description of the 15-minute
rule, but I think it fairly accurately represents the opinion of the
majority who I fly with in the ASA series. Some are neutral, some are
opposed and some are just plain furious. Most think it's a bit dumb and
adds complexity while subtracting from comprehensibility.

I don't believe it can be a good rule if it takes so much explaining! Rules
should be simple. We don't want something that resembles the US tax code!

My main complaint about the "start height penalty" , if I can call it that,
is that it treats all pilots the same, even though actual start height is
different. I have actually started a task lower than a colleague, flown
faster cross-country than him, then been beaten by him as he converts his
extra height into distance! We both received the same height (time)
penalty, even though I started lower.

You might ask, why didn't I take the extra height and start at the top like
others? First, it's crowded at the top of a start cylinder. Second, we
often get cyclical thermals that go higher than others and sometimes one
group of starters gets higher than the others. The lower group just can't
get up there!

If you want to level the playing field on start height (and I'm not going to
argue that it's unreasonable), then why not use each individual pilot's
actual start height? It's on the logger, and it means you don't have to add
an arbitrary fixed time (or height) to everyone.

The big problem, in my view, is that the decision making has been made more
complicated than under previous rules. Before, when you got final glide, if
you were getting home over minimum time, you just flew to the finish as fast
as possible. (It is a race, after all!) Under the new rule, when you get
final glide, you have to decide the optimum speed and how much of that
height to allocate to speed and how much to distance. Your flight computer
won't tell you! At a critical part of the race, you're having to do mental
arithmetic instead of concentrating on flying.

Anyway, I'd be happy to share opinions with the rule-making committee from
me and my colleagues who have quite a bit of experience flying with them in
local contests. There are some other rule changes we're not delighted about
either.

The discussion on www.asa-soaring.org
is under "Scoring" in the Forums section.

Mike

ASW 20 WA

There is a vote in progress for the vacant seat on the Rules
committee..Now is the time to voice your opinion of the "dumb-ass"
15 minute rule....Vote for the member that will listen to your
complaints and represent you and not force a rule we do not want.

Sam Fly


Michael Stringfellow wrote:
First, I have to say the "dumb-ass" is my own description of the 15-minute
rule, but I think it fairly accurately represents the opinion of the
majority who I fly with in the ASA series. Some are neutral, some are
opposed and some are just plain furious. Most think it's a bit dumb and
adds complexity while subtracting from comprehensibility.

I don't believe it can be a good rule if it takes so much explaining! Rules
should be simple. We don't want something that resembles the US tax code!

My main complaint about the "start height penalty" , if I can call it that,
is that it treats all pilots the same, even though actual start height is
different. I have actually started a task lower than a colleague, flown
faster cross-country than him, then been beaten by him as he converts his
extra height into distance! We both received the same height (time)
penalty, even though I started lower.

You might ask, why didn't I take the extra height and start at the top like
others? First, it's crowded at the top of a start cylinder. Second, we
often get cyclical thermals that go higher than others and sometimes one
group of starters gets higher than the others. The lower group just can't
get up there!

If you want to level the playing field on start height (and I'm not going to
argue that it's unreasonable), then why not use each individual pilot's
actual start height? It's on the logger, and it means you don't have to add
an arbitrary fixed time (or height) to everyone.

The big problem, in my view, is that the decision making has been made more
complicated than under previous rules. Before, when you got final glide, if
you were getting home over minimum time, you just flew to the finish as fast
as possible. (It is a race, after all!) Under the new rule, when you get
final glide, you have to decide the optimum speed and how much of that
height to allocate to speed and how much to distance. Your flight computer
won't tell you! At a critical part of the race, you're having to do mental
arithmetic instead of concentrating on flying.

Anyway, I'd be happy to share opinions with the rule-making committee from
me and my colleagues who have quite a bit of experience flying with them in
local contests. There are some other rule changes we're not delighted about
either.

The discussion on www.asa-soaring.org
is under "Scoring" in the Forums section.

Mike

ASW 20 WA

In article .net,
says...

My main complaint about the "start height penalty" , if I can call it that,
is that it treats all pilots the same, even though actual start height is
different. I have actually started a task lower than a colleague, flown
faster cross-country than him, then been beaten by him as he converts his
extra height into distance! We both received the same height (time)
penalty, even though I started lower.

But wouldn't you have the same outcome under the old system, simply
because you started lower? Isn't it the "starting lower" that allowed
him to beat you, not the 15 minutes added to the time?


You might ask, why didn't I take the extra height and start at the top like
others? First, it's crowded at the top of a start cylinder. Second, we
often get cyclical thermals that go higher than others and sometimes one
group of starters gets higher than the others. The lower group just can't
get up there!

As long as it is crowded at the top of the start cylinder anyway, have
the contest managers considered setting the start height lower, so
that all groups can start at the top?


If you want to level the playing field on start height (and I'm not going to
argue that it's unreasonable), then why not use each individual pilot's
actual start height? It's on the logger, and it means you don't have to add
an arbitrary fixed time (or height) to everyone.

How would you suggest using the start height information? I have
couple of ideas:

1) Pick a "standard" rate-of-climb to apply to all pilots, to
translate the start height into a time that is added on to the flight?
The strategy in that case would be to climb as high as possible if you
thought the thermals on course would have a lower climb rate than the
"standard"; or leave as low as possible if you thought the thermals on
course would have a higher rate of climb than the "standard".

2) Do it like badge and record attempts, and allow the pilots to start
at any height they wish, but penalize them for finishing more than,
say, 3000' below their start height. This might "uncrowd" the start
gate thermals, in addition to giving everyone the same "free" start
height. A minimum AGL finish height could still be set, of course.


The big problem, in my view, is that the decision making has been made more
complicated than under previous rules. Before, when you got final glide, if
you were getting home over minimum time, you just flew to the finish as fast
as possible. (It is a race, after all!) Under the new rule, when you get
final glide, you have to decide the optimum speed and how much of that
height to allocate to speed and how much to distance.

But won't the optimum speed already be known before you start your
glide; I.e., isn't it the speed for the McCready setting you are
using, which would be the rate of climb in your last thermal? The
whole idea of the 15 minutes was to make cross-country speed the
predominant factor by reducing the effect of the "free" start height.
For that case, the final glide should be flown according to McCready.
Sounds easier to me.

Personally, I'm a fan of assigned speed tasks, which I much prefer
over PST and AAT. I've always liked them, but must confess that I like
them even more now that I'm flying a motorglider, and don't have to
worry about a bad task call or bad weather causing me to land away
from the home airport.
--
!Replace DECIMAL.POINT in my e-mail address with just a . to reply
directly

Eric Greenwell
Richland, WA (USA)

In article , stant2
@mindspring.com says...
Well, I'm going to try to stay dispassionate about this whole
argument.

The 15 minute rule IS A DUMB ****ING RULE! It "solves" a problem that
doesn't exist. First of all, if everyone can start at the same
height, then how does it advantage anyone? IT DOESN'T. Now, about the
problem of having to figure out your final glide to the minute or lose
points, and how unfair it is... Well, gee, we are racing, aren't we?

That's what I want to do also, and I could never see how trying to
arrive at particular time was "racing". It reminded me rallying in a
sports car, which involved following directions very carefully, and
maintaining precise speeds; I.e., nothing like the sports car racing I
used to do. I didn't think is was "unfair", I just thought it wasn't
racing and wasn't fun.

It's just like a final glide - if you pooch that and end up too low,
you lose a lot of points! So now you would just have had to not
finish too soon. Pretty basic navigation task.

Maybe I was doing it wrong, but it didn't seem anything like a "basic
navigation task", which I think is getting to were you want to go.
Getting there at the time you wanted to, in a sailplane, with variable
weather, just seemed like a crap shoot to me. I won some and I lost
some, but I never felt like it was my navigation that resulted in
either, but mostly luck.

--
!Replace DECIMAL.POINT in my e-mail address with just a . to reply
directly

Eric Greenwell
Richland, WA (USA)

Sam Fly wrote in message ...
There is a vote in progress for the vacant seat on the Rules
committee..Now is the time to voice your opinion of the "dumb-ass"
15 minute rule....Vote for the member that will listen to your
complaints and represent you and not force a rule we do not want.

Sam Fly

So reading the biography for 2 out of 3 (one of the three I know wants
the "dumb-ass" rules) I cannot deduce which one of the other two will
represent the racers and not force a rule we do not want.

Can the other two please present their view on the "dumb-ass" rules
please? I want to race, go fast, and know who won based on clear,
simple rules, such as Distance/Time = Speed.

No 15 minute add
No 500' minimum finish
Get what you fly!

Thanks,

Tony Smolder - ASA contest manager
TS1
racing every weekend and loving it!