Anyone Ground-Launched a Russia Glider?

Hello,

I fly out of Hobbs, NM where we don't have a tow plane. We launch strictly by auto-tow. I am interested in a Russia AC-4B but am not comfortable ground launching from a nose hook. We currently fly Schweizer 1-26's and a 2-33, which has the hook located between the nose and the CG. When you climb high enough you can get a porpoising effect due to the tail stalling & unstalling. I would imagine this only gets worse with a hook in the nose, but I can't find anyone who has done it. The manual indicates that it can be done, but I wonder how much height you have to give up due to the hook location. I am also a little concerned about the angle being too sharp on the nose hook and possibly keeping it from releasing.

Has anyone flown (or seen) a Russia glider ground launched by the nose hook?

Thanks in advance,


Stephen

On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 9:05:04 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Hello,

I fly out of Hobbs, NM where we don't have a tow plane. We launch strictly by auto-tow. I am interested in a Russia AC-4B but am not comfortable ground launching from a nose hook. We currently fly Schweizer 1-26's and a 2-33, which has the hook located between the nose and the CG. When you climb high enough you can get a porpoising effect due to the tail stalling & unstalling. I would imagine this only gets worse with a hook in the nose, but I can't find anyone who has done it. The manual indicates that it can be done, but I wonder how much height you have to give up due to the hook location. I am also a little concerned about the angle being too sharp on the nose hook and possibly keeping it from releasing.

Has anyone flown (or seen) a Russia glider ground launched by the nose hook?

Thanks in advance,


Stephen

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ac4/info is a Russia glider yahoo group.. You might get a response there. However, I don't recall anyone ground launching one on the group.

On Friday, 25 August 2017 06:00:47 UTC+1, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 9:05:04 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Hello,

I fly out of Hobbs, NM where we don't have a tow plane. We launch strictly by auto-tow. I am interested in a Russia AC-4B but am not comfortable ground launching from a nose hook. We currently fly Schweizer 1-26's and a 2-33, which has the hook located between the nose and the CG. When you climb high enough you can get a porpoising effect due to the tail stalling & unstalling. I would imagine this only gets worse with a hook in the nose, but I can't find anyone who has done it. The manual indicates that it can be done, but I wonder how much height you have to give up due to the hook location. I am also a little concerned about the angle being too sharp on the nose hook and possibly keeping it from releasing.

Has anyone flown (or seen) a Russia glider ground launched by the nose hook?

Thanks in advance,


Stephen

Stephen, I would advise strongly against it. The only exception would be a "nose" hook with a back release like the Twin Lark IS28B2 (which also has a proper winch hook). You would, in that case, get a lousy launch but it shouldn't kill you. I wouldnt let my son use such an arrangement, and it also fails the "I would try it myself" test. Run a mile. I own five old gliders, two of which have the "compromise" hook, and they certainly do the porpoising on the winch or aut-tow as you describe. I have two IS29d's, one with just a compromise hook and the other with a "winch hook" as well, the difference on the launch ( height as well as behaviour) is huge.
The wheel has been invented, go for a round one, not a square one. Pete

This will only end in a broken glider and pilot

At 06:27 25 August 2017, Peter Whitehead wrote:
On Friday, 25 August 2017 06:00:47 UTC+1, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 9:05:04 PM UTC-6,

w=
rote:
Hello,
=20
I fly out of Hobbs, NM where we don't have a tow plane. We
launch
stri=
ctly by auto-tow. I am interested in a Russia AC-4B but am not
comfortable=
ground launching from a nose hook. We currently fly Schweizer 1-26's
and
=
a 2-33, which has the hook located between the nose and the CG.
When you
c=
limb high enough you can get a porpoising effect due to the tail stalling
&=
unstalling. I would imagine this only gets worse with a hook in the
nose,=
but I can't find anyone who has done it. The manual indicates that it
can=
be done, but I wonder how much height you have to give up due to
the hook
=
location. I am also a little concerned about the angle being too sharp
on
=
the nose hook and possibly keeping it from releasing.
=20
Has anyone flown (or seen) a Russia glider ground launched by the
nose
=
hook?
=20
Thanks in advance,
=20
=20
Stephen

Stephen, I would advise strongly against it. The only exception would
be a
=
"nose" hook with a back release like the Twin Lark IS28B2 (which also
has
a=
proper winch hook). You would, in that case, get a lousy launch but it
sho=
uldn't kill you. I wouldnt let my son use such an arrangement, and it
also
=
fails the "I would try it myself" test. Run a mile. I own five old
gliders,=
two of which have the "compromise" hook, and they certainly do the
porpois=
ing on the winch or aut-tow as you describe. I have two IS29d's, one
with
j=
ust a compromise hook and the other with a "winch hook" as well, the
differ=
ence on the launch ( height as well as behaviour) is huge.=20
The wheel has been invented, go for a round one, not a square one.
Pete

On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 10:05:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hello,

I fly out of Hobbs, NM where we don't have a tow plane. We launch strictly by auto-tow. I am interested in a Russia AC-4B but am not comfortable ground launching from a nose hook. We currently fly Schweizer 1-26's and a 2-33, which has the hook located between the nose and the CG. When you climb high enough you can get a porpoising effect due to the tail stalling & unstalling. I would imagine this only gets worse with a hook in the nose, but I can't find anyone who has done it. The manual indicates that it can be done, but I wonder how much height you have to give up due to the hook location. I am also a little concerned about the angle being too sharp on the nose hook and possibly keeping it from releasing.

Has anyone flown (or seen) a Russia glider ground launched by the nose hook?

Thanks in advance,


Stephen

Please don't ground launch anything by the nose hook. I have a lot of ground launch experience, auto tow and winch, and the very idea of ground launching with the nose hook scares the crap out of me. There have been some horrifying accidents where gliders went into the ground at high speed because the nose hook failed to release.

I do know of one instance of ground launching a Russia. It was an autolaunch situation and there was some slack and subsequent hard jerk on the rope during the initial launch. The Russia over rotated and stalled at low altitude. Busted the glider up. Luckily the pilot did not get severely injured. The glider was repaired and flew again.

On Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 9:09:52 AM UTC-6, WB wrote:
On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 10:05:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hello,

I fly out of Hobbs, NM where we don't have a tow plane. We launch strictly by auto-tow. I am interested in a Russia AC-4B but am not comfortable ground launching from a nose hook. We currently fly Schweizer 1-26's and a 2-33, which has the hook located between the nose and the CG. When you climb high enough you can get a porpoising effect due to the tail stalling & unstalling. I would imagine this only gets worse with a hook in the nose, but I can't find anyone who has done it. The manual indicates that it can be done, but I wonder how much height you have to give up due to the hook location. I am also a little concerned about the angle being too sharp on the nose hook and possibly keeping it from releasing.

Has anyone flown (or seen) a Russia glider ground launched by the nose hook?

Thanks in advance,


Stephen

Please don't ground launch anything by the nose hook. I have a lot of ground launch experience, auto tow and winch, and the very idea of ground launching with the nose hook scares the crap out of me. There have been some horrifying accidents where gliders went into the ground at high speed because the nose hook failed to release.

I do know of one instance of ground launching a Russia. It was an autolaunch situation and there was some slack and subsequent hard jerk on the rope during the initial launch. The Russia over rotated and stalled at low altitude. Busted the glider up. Luckily the pilot did not get severely injured. The glider was repaired and flew again.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...Final&IType=LA

On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 10:44:13 PM UTC-5, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 9:09:52 AM UTC-6, WB wrote:
On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 10:05:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hello,

I fly out of Hobbs, NM where we don't have a tow plane. We launch strictly by auto-tow. I am interested in a Russia AC-4B but am not comfortable ground launching from a nose hook. We currently fly Schweizer 1-26's and a 2-33, which has the hook located between the nose and the CG. When you climb high enough you can get a porpoising effect due to the tail stalling & unstalling. I would imagine this only gets worse with a hook in the nose, but I can't find anyone who has done it. The manual indicates that it can be done, but I wonder how much height you have to give up due to the hook location. I am also a little concerned about the angle being too sharp on the nose hook and possibly keeping it from releasing.

Has anyone flown (or seen) a Russia glider ground launched by the nose hook?

Thanks in advance,


Stephen

Please don't ground launch anything by the nose hook. I have a lot of ground launch experience, auto tow and winch, and the very idea of ground launching with the nose hook scares the crap out of me. There have been some horrifying accidents where gliders went into the ground at high speed because the nose hook failed to release.

I do know of one instance of ground launching a Russia. It was an autolaunch situation and there was some slack and subsequent hard jerk on the rope during the initial launch. The Russia over rotated and stalled at low altitude. Busted the glider up. Luckily the pilot did not get severely injured. The glider was repaired and flew again.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...Final&IType=LA


Hi Frank,

Thanks for posting the link to the NTSB report. Confirmed what I remembered.. My club trained that Russia pilot on ground launch with a typical 2:1 pulley system. During the accident flight, he was testing a 3:1 advantage pulley setup. Pretty much a hard landing and ground loop after the pitch up and stall.

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 1:45:51 PM UTC-6, WB wrote:
On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 10:44:13 PM UTC-5, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 9:09:52 AM UTC-6, WB wrote:
On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 10:05:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hello,

I fly out of Hobbs, NM where we don't have a tow plane. We launch strictly by auto-tow. I am interested in a Russia AC-4B but am not comfortable ground launching from a nose hook. We currently fly Schweizer 1-26's and a 2-33, which has the hook located between the nose and the CG. When you climb high enough you can get a porpoising effect due to the tail stalling & unstalling. I would imagine this only gets worse with a hook in the nose, but I can't find anyone who has done it. The manual indicates that it can be done, but I wonder how much height you have to give up due to the hook location. I am also a little concerned about the angle being too sharp on the nose hook and possibly keeping it from releasing.

Has anyone flown (or seen) a Russia glider ground launched by the nose hook?

Thanks in advance,


Stephen

Please don't ground launch anything by the nose hook. I have a lot of ground launch experience, auto tow and winch, and the very idea of ground launching with the nose hook scares the crap out of me. There have been some horrifying accidents where gliders went into the ground at high speed because the nose hook failed to release.

I do know of one instance of ground launching a Russia. It was an autolaunch situation and there was some slack and subsequent hard jerk on the rope during the initial launch. The Russia over rotated and stalled at low altitude. Busted the glider up. Luckily the pilot did not get severely injured. The glider was repaired and flew again.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...Final&IType=LA


Hi Frank,

Thanks for posting the link to the NTSB report. Confirmed what I remembered. My club trained that Russia pilot on ground launch with a typical 2:1 pulley system. During the accident flight, he was testing a 3:1 advantage pulley setup. Pretty much a hard landing and ground loop after the pitch up and stall.

Wally,

I had looked for a report years ago and never found one, so was surprised to find it now. At the time I was vendor relations contact for the EAA Regional at Longmont. Tried to get Bill Ard to show up. We had a member with a Russia and we put in on display with pictures of Brad Hill's kit build effort. Only got second hand information that someone in Wyoming had tried to ground launch and cart-wheeled. We later heard the glider would be repaired, which Applebay Aviation did. I spoke with the current owner who gave me some follow-up about the repairs, but he was dealing with his daughter's situation in Houston, so we'll catch up later. I agree with all that if a hook can't back release, no ground launching. I have winched some gliders with nose and chin hooks, but all could back release, 2-33, 2-32, 1-26, 1-34, HP-14, and Jantar Std 2 (where the hook was rotated to prevent back release at 700ft instead of 1500ft). Same models that could be fitted with CG hooks did much better.

Frank

On 08/29/2017 09:09 AM, WB wrote:
On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 10:05:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hello,

I fly out of Hobbs, NM where we don't have a tow plane. We launch strictly by auto-tow. I am interested in a Russia AC-4B but am not comfortable ground launching from a nose hook. We currently fly Schweizer 1-26's and a 2-33, which has the hook located between the nose and the CG. When you climb high enough you can get a porpoising effect due to the tail stalling & unstalling. I would imagine this only gets worse with a hook in the nose, but I can't find anyone who has done it. The manual indicates that it can be done, but I wonder how much height you have to give up due to the hook location. I am also a little concerned about the angle being too sharp on the nose hook and possibly keeping it from releasing.

Has anyone flown (or seen) a Russia glider ground launched by the nose hook?

Thanks in advance,


Stephen

Please don't ground launch anything by the nose hook. I have a lot of ground launch experience, auto tow and winch, and the very idea of ground launching with the nose hook scares the crap out of me. There have been some horrifying accidents where gliders went into the ground at high speed because the nose hook failed to release.

I do know of one instance of ground launching a Russia. It was an autolaunch situation and there was some slack and subsequent hard jerk on the rope during the initial launch. The Russia over rotated and stalled at low altitude. Busted the glider up. Luckily the pilot did not get severely injured. The glider was repaired and flew again.


So the Russia over-rotated with a nose hook. Wonder what would have
happened with a cg hook? I'll bet an even worse result. This accident
wasn't caused by the nose hook, it was caused by not having the slack
out of the rope prior to launch. And probably lack of a weak link.

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 5:47:02 PM UTC-6, kinsell wrote:
On 08/29/2017 09:09 AM, WB wrote:
On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 10:05:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hello,

I fly out of Hobbs, NM where we don't have a tow plane. We launch strictly by auto-tow. I am interested in a Russia AC-4B but am not comfortable ground launching from a nose hook. We currently fly Schweizer 1-26's and a 2-33, which has the hook located between the nose and the CG. When you climb high enough you can get a porpoising effect due to the tail stalling & unstalling. I would imagine this only gets worse with a hook in the nose, but I can't find anyone who has done it. The manual indicates that it can be done, but I wonder how much height you have to give up due to the hook location. I am also a little concerned about the angle being too sharp on the nose hook and possibly keeping it from releasing.

Has anyone flown (or seen) a Russia glider ground launched by the nose hook?

Thanks in advance,


Stephen

Please don't ground launch anything by the nose hook. I have a lot of ground launch experience, auto tow and winch, and the very idea of ground launching with the nose hook scares the crap out of me. There have been some horrifying accidents where gliders went into the ground at high speed because the nose hook failed to release.

I do know of one instance of ground launching a Russia. It was an autolaunch situation and there was some slack and subsequent hard jerk on the rope during the initial launch. The Russia over rotated and stalled at low altitude. Busted the glider up. Luckily the pilot did not get severely injured. The glider was repaired and flew again.


So the Russia over-rotated with a nose hook. Wonder what would have
happened with a cg hook? I'll bet an even worse result. This accident
wasn't caused by the nose hook, it was caused by not having the slack
out of the rope prior to launch. And probably lack of a weak link.

Dave,

You may be right about that. We don't know the type of rope involved, but stretchy stuff can catapult a light glider pretty high into the air. I witnessed exactly this when the nose wheel of a light glider got stuck in the soft turf and an inexperienced driver stretched a fairly short piece of rope with the pickup. Once the nose released, the glider was 50-75 feet in the air in the blink of an eye. The intent was just to do a ground run to check controls and W&B (recommended procedure for type).

Frank