Best Fighter For It's Time

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...

I accept correction on the Me-109. I was just repeating what I had been told. Oops.

Me-262 (First jet used in large quantities)

As has already been pointed out the Meteor entered squadron
service BEFORE the Me-262

That's true. But did the Meteor ever DO anything? Clearly the Me-262 saw
actual combat service, downing and being downed in large-ish numbers.


Harrier (VTOL)
F-117 (Stealth)

My list of other revolutionary aircraft
Bell Huey (first helo used in large numbers????)

Incorrect the Bell 47 preceded it by almost a decade
and remained in production until 1976

Oops. I knew that!!!

In article ,
Charles Talleyrand wrote:

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...

I accept correction on the Me-109. I was just repeating what I had been told. Oops.
As has already been pointed out the Meteor entered squadron
service BEFORE the Me-262

That's true. But did the Meteor ever DO anything? Clearly the Me-262 saw
actual combat service, downing and being downed in large-ish numbers.

In WW2 the Meteor F1 was mainly used for anti-V1 work, at which it was
successful, being faster, for longer, low down than 'most anything else.
If you count this as downing things, the Meteor F1 certainly downed
things. The much-improved F3 went into service in 1945, flying both from
the UK and from airfields in liberated areas, but there were restrictions
on flying over german-occupied territory for fear that the Germans might
get their hands on jet engines which actually worked properly (the engines
of the 262 were not in the same league for service life or combat
efficiency as the Derwents in the Meteor - the german engines, it is
claimed, had a nasty tendency to flame out when the throttle setting was
changed quickly - jsut what you don't want).

The Meat Box saw a lot of service post-war with a lot of countries,
generally being $NATION's first jet, where $NATION is any of a pretty
large number. I'm pretty sure it saw combat with some of these states.
One of the nations which used the Meteor was Argentina, where Adolf
Galland flew them and rated tham as better then the 262.

Admittedly, the Meteor (in RAAF service) did poorly over Korea against the
MiG-15, but tactics seem to have been flawed, not making the most of the
Meat Box's extremely good acceleration and trying to turn rather than
burn - the Meteor was not agile, unless handled by an exception pilot
(Zura, for example..). Against that, Meteors held the world ultimate speed
record several times, including pushing it over 500 and then, IIRC, up
to 600 mph, and had a very long service life. The RAF was still using
Meteors in supporting roles well into the 1980s and one example - Martin
Baker's ejection seat trials test-bed - is still in use with a service
number, so it could be said the Meteor is still in service use after 60
years.

And that's the last and possibly most important claim to fame of the
Meteor - as the workhorse of Martin-Baker's ejection seat programme since
the 1940s it's probably been responsible for saving the lives of more
pilots than any other aeroplane.

Not bad for a stop-gap design.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote in message
...

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

I accept correction on the Me-109. I was just repeating what I had been
told. Oops.

Me-262 (First jet used in large quantities)

As has already been pointed out the Meteor entered squadron
service BEFORE the Me-262

That's true. But did the Meteor ever DO anything? Clearly the Me-262 saw
actual combat service, downing and being downed in large-ish numbers.


Well yes, amongst other things it knocked down V-1's and served
in air forces around the world including the RAF and RAAF in Korea

Keith

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
news

As has already been pointed out the Meteor entered squadron
service BEFORE the Me-262

That's true. But did the Meteor ever DO anything? Clearly the Me-262
saw
actual combat service, downing and being downed in large-ish numbers.

I agree with Charles. If the criterion is first, then the Bell P-59A
beat the Meteor and is the revolutionary aircraft.


If the criterion is first to fly then the Germans flew the first aircraft
followed by the Gloster E28/39, on 15. May 1941, from Cranwell
and the Meteor and Vampire in 1943

The Bell P-59A didnt make its first flight until October 1942
and used a General Electric Model 1-A, an improved version
of the "Whittle" engine

Its a matter of record that the first jet aircraft to enter squadron
service was the Gloster Meteor with 616 Squadron on July 12 1944

The Me-262 changed warfare utterly. I think everyone who saw that
plane in action, or who even heard about it, knew that the future
would not be the same as the recent past. That's what revolutionary
means.

Sticking the Meteor in there is like all the arguments that arise
trying to prove that the Wright brothers didn't bring the world into
the age of flight, or that Columbus didn't "discover" America. It's
just national pride, or plain cussedness that won't accept the
judgment of history.


No comment

Keith

In article ,
M. J. Powell wrote:
Except for being the subject of the first joke I heard in the RAF:

Two airmen looking up at a contrail.

"It's an NF11"

"No, it's an NF12"

"What's the difference"?

"Different jacking points".

I *like* that.

Thanks, Mike.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote in message
That's true. But did the Meteor ever DO anything? Clearly the Me-262 saw
actual combat service, downing and being downed in large-ish numbers.


Well yes, amongst other things it knocked down V-1's and served
in air forces around the world including the RAF and RAAF in Korea


The after 1944 doesn't count since it wasn't revolutionary by then, for the
same reasons the Dreadnought was a revolution in 1905 but not in 1915.

Being the first to enter squadron service does count, but knocking down
V-1s is not so very impressive since planes of the previous generation could
do this with reasonable ease.

My impression is that the Me-262 was doing almost all the things a figher
was asked to do, and the Meteor was not. Part of this is likely the desperate needs
of the Germans and the abundence of good planes from the previous generation
of the allies.

The Me-262 is famous for being first regardless of facts. Why is that?

Charles Talleyrand wrote:

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote in message
That's true. But did the Meteor ever DO anything? Clearly the Me-262 saw
actual combat service, downing and being downed in large-ish numbers.


Well yes, amongst other things it knocked down V-1's and served
in air forces around the world including the RAF and RAAF in Korea


snip............

The Me-262 is famous for being first regardless of facts. Why is that?

Because it is German - and 'sexy' - the Meteor is clearly neither.

It is just a competent design that was, in many respects, better than the Me-262.

You only have to look at the amount of model kits of German subjects - aircraft and tanks - on the market today.

They vastly outnumber kits of other nations weapons.

There seems to be an enduring fascination with all things German in WWII. Some people are still blinded by the seeming
superiority of German weaponry and will not brook any argument to the contrary.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++
Ken Duffey - Flanker Freak & Russian Aviation Enthusiast
Flankers Website - http://www.flankers.co.uk/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++

"Ed Rasimus" a écrit dans le message de
...

Well, you didn't ask, but the reason I had the Hemingway quote handy,
is that I'm using it in my current project which is the story of my
F-4 combat tour during Linebacker I/II. Here's the follow up (in my
words) to the quote:

"Poppa was right on. I'd lost my cherry to the Thunderchief long
before I got my Phantom assignment. I'd wanted to fly the Thud from
the first day I'd seen one and I'd been fortunate to have been able to
meet the girl of my dreams, woo her and take her to bed in the vicious
days of Rolling Thunder. I'd lost my heart, my soul, my virginity to
an airplane with one seat, one engine and a gun. I'd been alone in bad
guy land in what was absolutely the best airplane in the world and I'd
been brought home safely more than one hundred times. How could one
not love her?

Now I was headed to F-4 school. I'd spent the last five years sparring
with Phantom drivers, sometimes seriously, sometimes jokingly about
the deficiencies of their airplane and the superiority of mine. There
were some deep-rooted issues regarding the views of the airplanes. On
the one hand, there was the simple issue of assignment out of pilot
training. I'd been fortunate enough to have the skills, the desire
and, most importantly, the healthy dose of luck required to gain an
assignment to a single seat fighter. The numbers told the story. There
were eight undergraduate pilot training bases pumping out USAF pilots
in a class every six weeks all year around. That meant about 325 new
second lieutenants joining the force every month and a half of which
nine would get to fly the F-105. The Phantom community was restricted
at that time to experienced pilots in the front seat and new graduate
pilots in the rear cockpit. In my graduating class there had been one
hundred and forty guys sent to back-seat pilot duties in the F-4. It
wasn't difficult to feel a bit superior. Nine guys got laid by a queen
of the prom and 140 got sloppy seconds with a fat, smoky,
double-breasted ex-Navy airplane that didn't even have a gun."




Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038


To keep your metaphore, hadn't the queen of the prom got a twin sister
nicknamed "G" who also used to date two guys at the same time? And not only
helped these same guys to practice their dancing skills in her Uncle Sam's
garage but also gave them some real action on the dancefloor of some North
Vietnamese highschools?
I mean, was the most important to you to be alone in the cockpit, "in an
aircraft with one seat", or just to fly the gun-equipped, frisky F-105,
whatever was the version? Did you have the same feelings for both the F-105G
pilots and the Phantom assigned pilots?

ArVa

"ArVa" wrote:

To keep your metaphore, hadn't the queen of the prom got a twin sister
nicknamed "G" who also used to date two guys at the same time? And not only
helped these same guys to practice their dancing skills in her Uncle Sam's
garage but also gave them some real action on the dancefloor of some North
Vietnamese highschools?
I mean, was the most important to you to be alone in the cockpit, "in an
aircraft with one seat", or just to fly the gun-equipped, frisky F-105,
whatever was the version? Did you have the same feelings for both the F-105G
pilots and the Phantom assigned pilots?

ArVa


Someone will accuse you of being my shill for book promotion.

At the time of the prom in question, the two seater was the F model
and it was used in training. It wasn't much good as a training
airplane since visibility was so bad from the back seat that a student
or instructor (whomever was riding in the R/C/P) could neither take
off or land from that vantage. The F-model Weasel came into the war in
late May of '66 and proved itself very capable. The G-Weasel, which
was an upgraded F, not a new production aircraft, continued improving
capability to detect and attack SAM sites through the end of the war.

Yes, it was important to be in a single-seat, single-engine,
gun-equipped airplane. That's the traditional configuration of a
fighter. If one aspired to be a fighter pilot, one did it in that
format.

Now, I have the deepest respect for the F-105 Weasel pilots (both F
and G), since I flew beside them--first in the 105D in '66 and then
when I returned to the war in '72 and specialized in Hunter/Killer ops
flying the F-4E in teams with the 105G.

I've got deep respect as well for Phantom pilots, since I've got four
times as much flying time in the F-4C/D/E as I do in the 105.

And, I'm proud to say that based on my Hunter/Killer experiences, I'm
a member of the Society of Wild Weasels. #2488. It's an honor to be
accepted by them.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

"Ed Rasimus" a écrit dans le message de
...
"ArVa" wrote:


Someone will accuse you of being my shill for book promotion.

Maybe, but don't you worry about that as I've became pretty used during the
last six months to reply to false accusations, blatant lies and dubious
rumours... :-)
Now, as for the fee for my promoting role you'll see it's quite reasonable :
that would just be a free, autographed copy of your upcoming book... :-)


At the time of the prom in question, the two seater was the F model
and it was used in training. It wasn't much good as a training
airplane since visibility was so bad from the back seat that a student
or instructor (whomever was riding in the R/C/P) could neither take
off or land from that vantage. The F-model Weasel came into the war in
late May of '66 and proved itself very capable. The G-Weasel, which
was an upgraded F, not a new production aircraft, continued improving
capability to detect and attack SAM sites through the end of the war.

Yes, it was important to be in a single-seat, single-engine,
gun-equipped airplane. That's the traditional configuration of a
fighter. If one aspired to be a fighter pilot, one did it in that
format.

Now, I have the deepest respect for the F-105 Weasel pilots (both F
and G), since I flew beside them--first in the 105D in '66 and then
when I returned to the war in '72 and specialized in Hunter/Killer ops
flying the F-4E in teams with the 105G.

I've got deep respect as well for Phantom pilots, since I've got four
times as much flying time in the F-4C/D/E as I do in the 105.

And, I'm proud to say that based on my Hunter/Killer experiences, I'm
a member of the Society of Wild Weasels. #2488. It's an honor to be
accepted by them.

No doubt. Thanks for all the informations.

Regards,
ArVa