What First Glider to own?

On Dec 3, 3:15 pm, "Tim Mara" wrote:
How Dare you! ??!

Libelle is "UGLY"???? and this coming for a guy with an LS1C?????

Glass houses!
Tim )

"rlovinggood" wrote in message

...



I would also recommend a Libelle:

Nearly everyone holds Libelles as beautiful and I couldn't agree more.

I'll have to disagree, to some extent, with WB.

Beautiful, yes. But only in a rare time when seen from a higher
vantage point and having to twist neck to look back and down.

Really ugly when seen from below and well out in front of my typical
vantage point. :-)

And yes, the low canopy really improves the look of this classic
glider.

I'll second what others have said: Make sure you get a good trailer
with all the bits in working order. Not much sucks more than a
knuckle-busting trailer.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
LS1-d

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as far as im concerned the libelle is beauty on wings. i gaggled with
a very nice 201 once while i was flying my cherokee ii. it took
everything i had not to let him outclimb me. i was impressed. i need
to sit in one to make sure that ill fit

Sit in one but try not to fly one.........or the Cherokee will lose it's
luster! )

Biggest fallacy about Libelle is the small cockpit....yes it is not bulbous
but it is actually very comfortable even for relatively larger pilots...I
fit nicely at 190 lbs and 5'10"+ and know others who are well +++6 foot that
actually fit rather well.but you have to fit it and fly it like a
Libelle.don't try to sit up but rather slide in and get your shoulders below
the canopy frame and lip.most try it on and complain it's too narrow at the
canopy and that's simply because they are not sitting in it the way Hanle
(genius!) designed it.alreay back in the earliest days of the Libelle Hanle
was thinking about cockpit strength and crash protection....and even if the
cockpit were tight..the flight in a Libelle is worth the efforts!..600
buyers couldn't have been all wrong!
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com


"Tony" wrote in message
...
On Dec 3, 3:15 pm, "Tim Mara" wrote:
How Dare you! ??!

Libelle is "UGLY"???? and this coming for a guy with an LS1C?????

Glass houses!
Tim )

"rlovinggood" wrote in message

...



I would also recommend a Libelle:

Nearly everyone holds Libelles as beautiful and I couldn't agree more.

I'll have to disagree, to some extent, with WB.

Beautiful, yes. But only in a rare time when seen from a higher
vantage point and having to twist neck to look back and down.

Really ugly when seen from below and well out in front of my typical
vantage point. :-)

And yes, the low canopy really improves the look of this classic
glider.

I'll second what others have said: Make sure you get a good trailer
with all the bits in working order. Not much sucks more than a
knuckle-busting trailer.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
LS1-d

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as far as im concerned the libelle is beauty on wings. i gaggled with
a very nice 201 once while i was flying my cherokee ii. it took
everything i had not to let him outclimb me. i was impressed. i need
to sit in one to make sure that ill fit

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OK, just to stoke some controversy, I'll add a contrary opinion:

There are two questions: What first glider to own, and what cheap
glider to own. These are often confused.

Unlike in many other sports the "latest and greatest" does not take
any more skill or finesse than older gliders. If you have the money,
there is no reason at all not to make your local dealer immensely
happy by ordering a modern glider, or buying one of the many excellent
used ones for sale. If you are qualified to fly a Libelle, Cirrus, or
PIK, you're qualified to fly a 27-28-29, or D2/V2.

You get easier handling and a considerable improvement in safety. All
the new gliders have better balanced controls. Winglets make a big
difference in thermals. Spin prone tips, all flying tails, small
slippery airbrakes and all that got sorted out in the 80s. The "safety
cockpit" concept really didn't begin until the late 80s and early 90s.
You also get a trailer that is much much better than earlier models.
Landing my ASW27 is much easier than landing a libelle.

(Of course new pilots should stay away from open class, tricky
gliders, and motors. Power pilots should absolutely not get a glider
with a motor in it -- they always seem to want that.)

Older gliders are lovely. Old cars are lovely. But old anything means
lots more care and maintenance. Nobody said the three most important
things to look at in an older glider: Gelcoat, Gelcoat, Gelcoat. It's
only a matter of time before that $15,000 + bill comes due. Plus rust
on the fittings, ADs, bags that leak, fittings that break, bearings
that wear out, manufacturers who don't exist/don't stock older parts,
and so on and so forth. It's a tradeoff -- save money initially, but
you will invest more time. If you don't know how to do it yourself,
you'll invest lots more repair money down the road too. If that's for
you, good. If you have the money and would rather spend time flying,
do it.

I have to disagree pretty hard with the advice here that KA6s and the
like are good gliders for new pilots to consider. KA6s are beautiful,
fragile, wooden antiques. They need lots of expert tender loving care.
It's like owning and driving a Ford Model A. Vintage and antique
flying are wonderful hobbies -- but not for a new pilot with limited
time and expertise at glider maintenance, whose main interest is in
flying.

Plus, look hard at the bottom of a KA6. It looks like a gorgeously
made wooden boat from the 1950s. Now think of your butt down there,
crashing in to something. Splinters are not a safety cockpit. When you
go for gliders this old, you're making a big tradeoff in money for
safety. Now, that's probably ok if you want to float around the
airport and enjoy your beautiful antique. Missing seatbelts are ok for
tooling around in your Ford Model A on a sunday afternoon. But if you
want to push the cross country or contest envelope, it's a much more
important consideration.

This post started with "under 20k". But where did that money limit
come from? Maybe that $20k limit isn't so hard and fast after all? I
bet it came from a perception that the cost/value tradeoff peaks at
$20k. I hope the above makes you look a little deeper.

Here's how to explain it to the spouse. Don't look at the list price
-- look at the annual cost. Gliders don't depreciate. If you buy a
glider for $20k, you'll sell it for $20k a few years from now. So a
$20k glider is really costing you the interest you'd be earning each
year. That's maybe 2 percent per year right now, so a $20k glider only
costs you $400 per year! Even if you have to borrow, home equity
loans are about 5% right now, so that $20k glider only costs $1000 per
year. The insurance and tows are going to cost more than that!

Maybe a $40k glider, meaning $800 lost interest or $2000/ year
interest cost, isn't that "expensive" after all. And with a partner
(an excellent idea for a first purchase) now we can talk about an $80k
glider! Owning a glider is, in the end, pretty cheap. Try to play
golf or go skiing on $2000 per year! (No, I'm not on the dealer
payroll!)

It is also a bad idea to buy a glider that you know you'll outgrow in
a few years. There's a lot of pain in the butt with buying and selling
gliders, setting up instruments, paying sales taxes, and so on. Spend
a bit more now, and be sure you'll be happy with it for at least 5
years. The difference in performance of the new gliders is pretty big.
That doesn't just mean you go faster, it means you stay up and go
places others can't. That "'cheap" glider will end up costing a lot if
you dump it in a year or two because you're tired of watching your
buddies go places you can't.

John Cochrane

this is all well for those well to do....but.....flying a brand new super
ship doesn't always mean that the flying is any more fun or rewarding than
flying a "NICE" maybe older glider....and the cost of ownership does in fact
have both sides of the coin.the older glider "might" need some restoration
and maintenance...but a Nice one may also not need any big investments added
to it either..a cheap and neglected glider is just that..but a nice older
ship can provide lots of enjoyment..I new or newer fancy ship has added
costs as well....the insurance of a 100K glider alone can cost in a just a
year or two what you might possible pay for a decent older glider...then
there's the taxes (if you live in a place where you have to contribute the
great society..maybe your super ship deserves a super hangar or super
storage facility that the older ship doesn't quite live up to...
the fun factor doesn't always increase with the cost...I've owned a bunch of
glides and airplanes.....I own 3 now....one is a brand new 304S.fantastic
super ship.....but fun factors and satisfaction with a good day at the
airport are not tied together...
biggest thing is buy a glider you can afford and just go fly for
fun......after all...if flying gliders isn't for fun then what is it ?
best regards
Tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"John Cochrane" wrote in message
...
OK, just to stoke some controversy, I'll add a contrary opinion:

There are two questions: What first glider to own, and what cheap
glider to own. These are often confused.

Unlike in many other sports the "latest and greatest" does not take
any more skill or finesse than older gliders. If you have the money,
there is no reason at all not to make your local dealer immensely
happy by ordering a modern glider, or buying one of the many excellent
used ones for sale. If you are qualified to fly a Libelle, Cirrus, or
PIK, you're qualified to fly a 27-28-29, or D2/V2.

You get easier handling and a considerable improvement in safety. All
the new gliders have better balanced controls. Winglets make a big
difference in thermals. Spin prone tips, all flying tails, small
slippery airbrakes and all that got sorted out in the 80s. The "safety
cockpit" concept really didn't begin until the late 80s and early 90s.
You also get a trailer that is much much better than earlier models.
Landing my ASW27 is much easier than landing a libelle.

(Of course new pilots should stay away from open class, tricky
gliders, and motors. Power pilots should absolutely not get a glider
with a motor in it -- they always seem to want that.)

Older gliders are lovely. Old cars are lovely. But old anything means
lots more care and maintenance. Nobody said the three most important
things to look at in an older glider: Gelcoat, Gelcoat, Gelcoat. It's
only a matter of time before that $15,000 + bill comes due. Plus rust
on the fittings, ADs, bags that leak, fittings that break, bearings
that wear out, manufacturers who don't exist/don't stock older parts,
and so on and so forth. It's a tradeoff -- save money initially, but
you will invest more time. If you don't know how to do it yourself,
you'll invest lots more repair money down the road too. If that's for
you, good. If you have the money and would rather spend time flying,
do it.

I have to disagree pretty hard with the advice here that KA6s and the
like are good gliders for new pilots to consider. KA6s are beautiful,
fragile, wooden antiques. They need lots of expert tender loving care.
It's like owning and driving a Ford Model A. Vintage and antique
flying are wonderful hobbies -- but not for a new pilot with limited
time and expertise at glider maintenance, whose main interest is in
flying.

Plus, look hard at the bottom of a KA6. It looks like a gorgeously
made wooden boat from the 1950s. Now think of your butt down there,
crashing in to something. Splinters are not a safety cockpit. When you
go for gliders this old, you're making a big tradeoff in money for
safety. Now, that's probably ok if you want to float around the
airport and enjoy your beautiful antique. Missing seatbelts are ok for
tooling around in your Ford Model A on a sunday afternoon. But if you
want to push the cross country or contest envelope, it's a much more
important consideration.

This post started with "under 20k". But where did that money limit
come from? Maybe that $20k limit isn't so hard and fast after all? I
bet it came from a perception that the cost/value tradeoff peaks at
$20k. I hope the above makes you look a little deeper.

Here's how to explain it to the spouse. Don't look at the list price
-- look at the annual cost. Gliders don't depreciate. If you buy a
glider for $20k, you'll sell it for $20k a few years from now. So a
$20k glider is really costing you the interest you'd be earning each
year. That's maybe 2 percent per year right now, so a $20k glider only
costs you $400 per year! Even if you have to borrow, home equity
loans are about 5% right now, so that $20k glider only costs $1000 per
year. The insurance and tows are going to cost more than that!

Maybe a $40k glider, meaning $800 lost interest or $2000/ year
interest cost, isn't that "expensive" after all. And with a partner
(an excellent idea for a first purchase) now we can talk about an $80k
glider! Owning a glider is, in the end, pretty cheap. Try to play
golf or go skiing on $2000 per year! (No, I'm not on the dealer
payroll!)

It is also a bad idea to buy a glider that you know you'll outgrow in
a few years. There's a lot of pain in the butt with buying and selling
gliders, setting up instruments, paying sales taxes, and so on. Spend
a bit more now, and be sure you'll be happy with it for at least 5
years. The difference in performance of the new gliders is pretty big.
That doesn't just mean you go faster, it means you stay up and go
places others can't. That "'cheap" glider will end up costing a lot if
you dump it in a year or two because you're tired of watching your
buddies go places you can't.

John Cochrane

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For information of the Schreder HP/RS series, check out
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://tinyurl.com/N990-6F


"jb92563" wrote in message ...

.... Snip....

The Schreder HP Experiementals are a great buy. I bought my 40+ year
old HP-11 for $6,000 with a good trailer.
Its had 9 owners and they have completed Diamonds etc in them.
Its all metal and I leave it outside rigged in the blistering CA sun
and occasional rain, year round and its virtually maintenance free. L/
D ~37:1

Its durable and learning Flaps is easy and less scray than you have
heard and gives you capabilities to exceed your best expectations,
with flap assisted slow thermalling and reflex flaps for top end
speed. and full flaps to get in to incredibly small postage stamp
sized fields. I now prefer flaps to spoilers alone and I think most
people would too if they gave it a try.

Its also a rugged and durable design and will out survive a fiberglass
model with reduced maintenance required.

You should check out the HP-11, HP-14, HP-18 and RS-15 in the Schreder
line at soaridaho. com, mostly under $15K

To fly one is to become a believer in late 60's high performance
contest proven technology. Plus you can afford all those extra tows
and road trips with the money you save.

Save for the modern glass while you have fun in the Schreders and pass
along your HP when you are ready to move up....they last forever.

Ray

Gelcoat, Gelcoat, Gelcoat. It's
only a matter of time before that $15,000 + bill comes due.

- And how many relatively new 27s or LS-8s required new gel coat or
wing re-profiling?
Some of them as new as 2 years old... Quite of few.
And just like with old gliders you wont see the return when selling.

On 12/3/2010 10:28 AM, jb92563 wrote:
There are a few Experimental Gliders with great performance bang for
the buck and are great performers.

Snip...

The Schreder HP Experimentals are a great buy. I bought my 40+ year
old HP-11 for $6,000 with a good trailer.
It's had 9 owners and they have completed Diamonds etc in them.
Its all metal and I leave it outside rigged in the blistering CA sun
and occasional rain, year round and its virtually maintenance free. L/
D ~37:1

Its durable and learning Flaps is easy and less scary than you have
heard and gives you capabilities to exceed your best expectations,
with flap assisted slow thermalling and reflex flaps for top end
speed. and full flaps to get in to incredibly small postage stamp
sized fields. I now prefer flaps to spoilers alone and I think most
people would too if they gave it a try.

"I'll second the above." Usta own/fly an HP-14, transitioned into 'flapped
high performance' ships from a 1-26 w. ~125 total PIC hours w/o problems (the
HP being the 2nd of 3 flaps-only 'higher performance types' ever self-owned).

Regardless of what you eventually decide, FWIW, just about *all* of the advice
you've received in this thread has merit, IMHO. Yet another fascinating aspect
of this wonderful sporting activity!

Have fun - searching and soaring!

Regards,
Bob W.

Dont forget the running costs. Insurance is usually related to hull value.
If you go glass remember not all gell coats last the same. In our club we
have several Discus's where the gell coat needed replacing after about
15yrs. However out Grob 102 mkIIIs are still fine after about 30yrs.
Other gliders in your bracket include DG100/200, ASw19, std cirrus,
Mosquito. Dont like the corrosion problems with aluminum glider. They are
usually hidden.

Nigel

On Dec 4, 8:32*am, Nigel Pocock wrote:
Dont forget the running costs. Insurance is usually related to hull value..
If you go glass remember not all gell coats last the same. In our club we
have several Discus's where the gell coat needed replacing after about
15yrs. However out Grob 102 mkIIIs are still fine after about 30yrs.
Other gliders in your bracket include DG100/200, ASw19, std cirrus,
Mosquito. Dont like the corrosion problems with aluminum glider. They are
usually hidden.

Nigel

Insurance doesn't rise with hull value as much as you'd think however.
Liability is the same for everyone. Most damage doesn't total the
glider. A canopy is $5k on any glider. Insurance companies know this
and charge accordingly. Thus, $20k gliders cost about $1200 to insure,
while $100k gliders still cost less than $2000 to insure.

Hence my point that expensive gliders aren't as expensive as you
think. The fixed costs of owning and operating any glider -- liability
insurance, tows, annual, maintenance, club membership, contest fees,
gas, hotels, beer and burritos -- add up to several thousand dollars
per year. Even using 5% interest, so a $20k glider is $1000 per year,
and a $60k glider is $3000 per year, this capital cost has a smaller
effect than you'd think on the overall cost of soaring.

Or so I try to persuade my wife...

John Cochrane

At 23:15 03 December 2010, John Cochrane wrote:

Maybe a $40k glider, meaning $800 lost interest or $2000/ year
interest cost, isn't that "expensive" after all. And with a partner
(an excellent idea for a first purchase) now we can talk about an $80k
glider! Owning a glider is, in the end, pretty cheap.

You're overlooking insurance costs, no? And the more expensive glider
does cost more when the insurance premium comes due.

Jim Beckman