High Performance Single Engine Choices

On 8 Dec 2003 06:16:34 -0800, (Nathan
Young) wrote:

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message ...
Just out of curiosity, what is the fastest single-engine aircraft
available and how fast does it go? -Sami

If you will consider experimentals, the Lancair IV-P is the king.
4-seats, 330mph TAS, pressurized. Price tag is $350-500k depending on
options.

The turbo charged Glasair III is way up there too, but it's only two
seats and a bit more snug than the IV-P. Then again you can pull 4 to
6 Gs without worry either. That is if they were on purpose.:-))


Fastest production is probably the Mooney 252 series (now called
TLS/Bravo). These will do 220 KTAS. For new planes, the pricetag is
similar to the Lancair, although an older 252 would be $150k+.

Don't forget the new Lancair production models. They have cruise
speeds right up there with the conventional, high performance retracts
Over 200 MPH and fixed gear to boot. Meaning a low time pilot with a
big billfold could get insurance. You are still looking at 300 grand
plus, but they sure are nice inside.


An early 1980 A36 TC or turbonormalized will do 200 kts and will have
the six seats. Price is around $200k.

You can also easily spend 250 to 300 grand in the same range.
In 84 they changed to the new, conventional separate yokes instead of
using the throw over, or massive cross bar on the dual yokes. From
there on they start getting expensive.


Keep in mind these are not normal operating speeds, but maximum cruise
speeds. You probably won't make it to 2000hrs after overhaul if you
run the engine at 75% or greater power required to achieve these

You'll get argument here too.
Some, me included, figure an engine will last the longest when
working. Any certified engine should make TBO if flown regularly
whether at 60% or 75%. If they don't have a limitation, they would
probably do as well at 80%.

I run 75%, except for landing, take off, maneuvering and approaches.
I'm nearing TBO and the engine still uses a pint or less in 25 hours.
Not having an oil filter (just a screen to take out the chunks), I
change every 25 hours.

At 75% I can figure an honest 160 knots true on 13.5 to 14 GPH with a
bit of room to spare. A high percentage of the older Bos, be they
straight tail or "V" have had the Deshannon speed mods done such as
the thick, one piece speed sloped windshields and gap seals.

We ran the old Cherokee 180 at 75% as well and it's gone through two
majors and is ready for a new engine. Every time it went way beyond
TBO, but the guys decided to bite the bullet and spend the money at
300 and 500 hours over.

As far as efficiency it's really difficult to beat the old Comanche
180.
speeds.

For the $75-120k pricerange you mentioned, an N thru-V model V35
Bonanza would fit your requirements.

As will the Debonairs with the larger engines and the early F-33s.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

-Nathan

" paying upwards of $15K per YEAR for full coverage."

this is for single engine airplanes with 4 seats?


Jay Honeck wrote:

On the contrary, MOST experimentals ARE insurable.

Well, in the same sense that Betty Grable's legs were "insurable".

The only experimental aircraft with affordable insurance that I know of is
the RV line. I've talked to the Glasair and Lancair people (and the Cirrus
people, in the certificated category), and they all just try to change the
subject when you bring up insurance. They ALL try to gloss over the fact
that you will be paying upwards of $15K per YEAR for full coverage.

I'm sorry, but in my world, that's "uninsurable"...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

(Michael) wrote in message . com...
"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote
1. Fast: 160 kts
2. Price range: $75K-$120K
3. Four Seater
4. Range: 800nm
5. Useful Payload (with full fuel); 650lbs
6. Retains its value well over time
7. Reliable: Engine TBO of 2000 hrs, good saftey record
8. Insurable for a pilot with only 350 hrs PIC experience (no HP/complex
time)

No airplane in that class really has a good safety record (in the
sense that something like a C-172 does). These airplanes are used for
transportation, not training and going around the patch. Virtually
any certified tri-gear landplane that can be bought for $120K in good
condition is going to be insurable for you, but anything in the
performance class you want will require 10-25 hours dual and a big hit
in the first year (think $3K+).


Insurance cost or instructional requirement doesn't sound prohibitive
or a 'big hit', based on your figures. If a person is spending $120k
on an aircraft, an extra $1500 for insurance for the first year is not
all that significant (particularly if the insurance cost goes down to
a lower level in year #2.) Likewise, the cost of 25 hours of dual
instruction ($1,000?) also looks like money well spent, and not
significant in the context of a $120k purchase.

I am sure an aircraft such the one the poster is contemplating will
cost him $100-125k. An extra $3k to become comfortable flying it
over the long-term sounds like a good deal.

John

John wrote:
(Michael) wrote in message . com...

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote

1. Fast: 160 kts
2. Price range: $75K-$120K
3. Four Seater
4. Range: 800nm
5. Useful Payload (with full fuel); 650lbs
6. Retains its value well over time
7. Reliable: Engine TBO of 2000 hrs, good saftey record
8. Insurable for a pilot with only 350 hrs PIC experience (no HP/complex
time)

No airplane in that class really has a good safety record (in the
sense that something like a C-172 does). These airplanes are used for
transportation, not training and going around the patch. Virtually
any certified tri-gear landplane that can be bought for $120K in good
condition is going to be insurable for you, but anything in the
performance class you want will require 10-25 hours dual and a big hit
in the first year (think $3K+).



Insurance cost or instructional requirement doesn't sound prohibitive
or a 'big hit', based on your figures. If a person is spending $120k
on an aircraft, an extra $1500 for insurance for the first year is not
all that significant (particularly if the insurance cost goes down to
a lower level in year #2.) Likewise, the cost of 25 hours of dual
instruction ($1,000?) also looks like money well spent, and not
significant in the context of a $120k purchase.

I am sure an aircraft such the one the poster is contemplating will
cost him $100-125k. An extra $3k to become comfortable flying it
over the long-term sounds like a good deal.

John
He was saying the ins. was 15 thousand.

" paying upwards of $15K per YEAR for full coverage."

this is for single engine airplanes with 4 seats?

Yes. Go tell your insurance guy that you're thinking about buying a Cirrus
SR-22, or a Lancair IV, and see what he tells you.

In five years of paying insurance premiums, you will have bought a nice
house in the country.

I call that "uninsurable"...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Well at least you have qualified your "definition" of uninsurable.
Initially your statement was "..are completely uninsurable.."

Even I have said that some experimentals insurance is beyond
the owners budget.

I'm sorry, but in my world, that's "uninsurable"...

We all live in the same world and its a good idea to communicate
clearly - without too much bias.

......$15K per YEAR for full coverage

Thats really not so bad for aircraft category that compare to
$500K certified range. However, the owner budget determines
whether they can afford the coverage - I don't even have
collision on my autos because it saves money over my
lifetime.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:cN7Bb.469786$Tr4.1294785@attbi_s03...
On the contrary, MOST experimentals ARE insurable.

Well, in the same sense that Betty Grable's legs were "insurable".

The only experimental aircraft with affordable insurance that I know of is
the RV line. I've talked to the Glasair and Lancair people (and the Cirrus
people, in the certificated category), and they all just try to change the
subject when you bring up insurance. They ALL try to gloss over the fact
that you will be paying upwards of $15K per YEAR for full coverage.

I'm sorry, but in my world, that's "uninsurable"...

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 03:07:38 GMT, (Ben Jackson) wrote:

In article ,
O. Sami Saydjari wrote:
8. Insurable for a pilot with only 350 hrs PIC experience (no HP/complex
time)

You can get insurance with no HP/complex time, but you'll have to fly
more dual before you can solo.

I moved into the Deb which is basically the same as an F-33 with 300
hours and nothing faster than a Cherokee 180. As I recall it was 15
hours dual...It might have been 25, but I think it was 15 before
they'd let me solo( I'd have to find that old logbook), but at that
point I could carry passengers.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

I have been thinking about a Piper Comanche 260 and a Piper Turbo Arrow
III/IV. I was considering a Mooney M20J, but they feel a little cramped

Where are you located? Have you flown the Comanche or the Arrow?

On 8 Dec 2003 14:07:08 -0800, (Paul Lee) wrote:

On the contrary, MOST experimentals ARE insurable. There were a
few incidents where AVEMCO would not insure a FEW hi performance
experimentals, but then EAA cut its ties with AVEMCO and
the new EAA insurer is now Falcon Insurance.
If you are interested, there are more details at
http://www.eaa.org/communications/ea...insurance.html

However, what may be true is that the hull insurance on a few
hi perf. experimentals may be beyond budget for SOME owners.

I'm not sure what it is now, but the first year on at G-III (Glasair
III) was nearly $6,000 although when you consider a well equipped one
is worth close to $250,000 that ain't all that bad.

They are hot and landing one is more like landing a twin, but other
than that they are like flying most other planes..except things happen
a lot faster and you have to plan farther ahead.

With the Deb at 7,000 I have to start down nearly 40 miles out to make
the approach to 3BS. With the G-III It'd be more like 60 miles out.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

And if somebody is interested in a particular experimental,
they can contact the KIT Mfg. and ask them.

----------------------------------------------------
Paul Lee, SQ2000 canard project: www.abri.com/sq2000

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:EN0Bb.269559$Dw6.916917@attbi_s02...
If you will consider experimentals, the Lancair IV-P is the king.
4-seats, 330mph TAS, pressurized. Price tag is $350-500k depending on
options.

Don't forget that most experimentals -- especially in this category -- are
completely uninsurable. You might get liability coverage, but nothing more.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 23:27:04 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

On the contrary, MOST experimentals ARE insurable.

Well, in the same sense that Betty Grable's legs were "insurable".

The only experimental aircraft with affordable insurance that I know of is
the RV line. I've talked to the Glasair and Lancair people (and the Cirrus
people, in the certificated category), and they all just try to change the
subject when you bring up insurance. They ALL try to gloss over the fact
that you will be paying upwards of $15K per YEAR for full coverage.

I was quoted less than $6,000 for the G-III about a year ago although
it may be higher now.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

I'm sorry, but in my world, that's "uninsurable"...

On 8 Dec 2003 11:36:25 -0800, (Michael) wrote:

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote
1. Fast: 160 kts
2. Price range: $75K-$120K
3. Four Seater
4. Range: 800nm
5. Useful Payload (with full fuel); 650lbs
6. Retains its value well over time
7. Reliable: Engine TBO of 2000 hrs, good saftey record
8. Insurable for a pilot with only 350 hrs PIC experience (no HP/complex
time)

No airplane in that class really has a good safety record (in the
sense that something like a C-172 does). These airplanes are used for
transportation, not training and going around the patch. Virtually
any certified tri-gear landplane that can be bought for $120K in good
condition is going to be insurable for you, but anything in the
performance class you want will require 10-25 hours dual and a big hit
in the first year (think $3K+).

True with the dual, but ...
I don't pay near that with 80,000 full hull coverage and never did.
Max was around $1500 per year.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

I have been thinking about a Piper Comanche 260 and a Piper Turbo Arrow
III/IV. I was considering a Mooney M20J, but they feel a little cramped
in the cabin to me. What I am looking for is the best dollars/kts
airplane (what we call price/performance in the computer biz) that meets
the above requirements. I would really appreciate suggestions and advice.

First off, never compare top speeds between normally aspirated and
turbo - they are not comparable. The turbo needs to go high to get
its speed, and that means you never go very fast when Westbound.
Pretty quick going East, though. Unless you NEED to go high (meaning
you fly in the mountains) a turbo is rarely cost-effective.

The Comanche 260 is a good choice for what you want - make sure it has
at least 84 gallons of fuel. The Mooney is cramped in the cabin - if
you're going to fly long legs, you won't enjoy it unless you are thin.
Other planes you might consider:

A 1960's era Bonanza. Most Bonanzas of that era don't make book speed
because they were tested clean (without antennas) but they're still
the fastest thing around with a reasonably roomy cabin.

A Viking. Wood wings are an issue (get one from a dry climate and
hangar it) but purchase price is low, and the speed is there. The
14-19 is the tailwheel version - way cool, but insurance will be an
issue.

You may also consider twins. The only ones that really fit your
mission profile while maintianing similar operating costs are the Twin
Comanche and Beech Travel Air. Insurance will be higher ($4K+) if you
are instrument rated, and ridiculous ($6K+) if you are not. Purchase
price will be lower than a comparably performing single.

Michael