Could training at a towered airport have prevented the ADIZ bust

A good way to shock under 40 pilots is to tell them that "no one" used headsets back in the day. How stupid was that!

The aircraft available for rent did not have intercoms. The pilots did
not have much input into the matter.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jay Beckman wrote:

Which brings up this question: Why did they need the F16s at all? Aren't
the Blackhawks armed with 20mm guns mounted in the doors? Did they not
know the type of aircraft until the F16s arrived on station or did the helo
get a viz ID first? If so, why not call off the F16s? The Blackhawk
probably could have blown the C150 down with rotor wash on it's own.

What if the intruder is a Citation? Blackhawks can't catch one.

Of course, as has been mentioned elsewhere, a Citation would've either hit or
been out of the ADIZ by the time the F-16s left the ground, but that's probably
the argument for using them.

Maybe if they kept the F-16 pilots at cockpit readiness, like they did Spitfire
pilots during the BFB, they might have a chance. Anybody want that job?

George Patterson
"Naked" means you ain't got no clothes on; "nekkid" means you ain't got
no clothes on - and are up to somethin'.

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:eqcie.5517$n95.3587@trndny08...
Jay Beckman wrote:

Which brings up this question: Why did they need the F16s at all?
Aren't the Blackhawks armed with 20mm guns mounted in the doors? Did
they not know the type of aircraft until the F16s arrived on station or
did the helo get a viz ID first? If so, why not call off the F16s? The
Blackhawk probably could have blown the C150 down with rotor wash on it's
own.

What if the intruder is a Citation? Blackhawks can't catch one.


George,

I realize that a BlackHawk couldn't catch a bizjet but the plane in this
specific case was a C150. Hence my additonal questions regarding at what
point was the type confirmed?

If the helo got a positive ID, then did they really need the Falcons? Were
the Falcons airborn and enroute before an ID was made?

Personally, a 20mm minigun pointed my way from a BlackHawk would get my
attention ASAP.

Of course, as has been mentioned elsewhere, a Citation would've either hit
or been out of the ADIZ by the time the F-16s left the ground, but that's
probably the argument for using them.

Maybe if they kept the F-16 pilots at cockpit readiness, like they did
Spitfire pilots during the BFB, they might have a chance. Anybody want
that job?

I do not know if the pilot I saw interviewed was one of the interceptors or
if he was just "Spokes Brass", but he used the term "Hot Cocked" in regard
to the F16s assigned to ADIZ duty.

A little Google-ing yields a defintion of "Hot Cocked" as being an aircraft
that is fueled and armed, has it's INS aligned and then is not moved unless
launced. There were differing opinions but from what I could glean, a "Hot
Cocked" fighter can be airborne in as little as 30 seconds after startup +
gauge stabilization if they are getting radar steers (GC or AWACS) or are
GPS equipped, to about 2 minutes if they will have to rely soley on INS
guidence.

IIRC, the F15s at Bitburg Germany were maintained in this state of readiness
in their hardstands in case "Ivan" came calling via the Fulda Gap back in
the "bad old days."

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

Jay Beckman wrote:

I realize that a BlackHawk couldn't catch a bizjet but the plane in this
specific case was a C150. Hence my additonal questions regarding at what
point was the type confirmed?

I took your post to be a suggestion that we get rid of the fighters completely.
I now see that wasn't what you were suggesting.

George Patterson
"Naked" means you ain't got no clothes on; "nekkid" means you ain't got
no clothes on - and are up to somethin'.

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:FPeie.2815$BF5.1027@trndny06...
Jay Beckman wrote:

I realize that a BlackHawk couldn't catch a bizjet but the plane in this
specific case was a C150. Hence my additonal questions regarding at what
point was the type confirmed?

I took your post to be a suggestion that we get rid of the fighters
completely. I now see that wasn't what you were suggesting.

George Patterson
"Naked" means you ain't got no clothes on; "nekkid" means you ain't
got
no clothes on - and are up to somethin'.

Ah...

No worries...

BTW, I work the NASCAR circuit for FOX and NBC so I'm with mostly
southerners each weekend. Remembering your sig, I asked some of them to
define the difference between "naked" and "nekkid." To a man, I got the
same definition you offer from about 6 different people (albeit, not in such
polite terms...hehehe)

Jay B

"Jay Beckman" wrote

BTW, I work the NASCAR circuit for FOX and NBC so I'm with mostly
southerners each weekend. Remembering your sig, I asked some of them to
define the difference between "naked" and "nekkid." To a man, I got the
same definition you offer from about 6 different people (albeit, not in
such
polite terms...hehehe)

It is a line from a Southern comedian, Foxworthy, I think.
--
Jim in NC

Jay Beckman wrote:

To a man, I got the
same definition you offer from about 6 different people (albeit, not in such
polite terms...hehehe)

I'm not surprised -- my version comes from the southern author Lewis Grizard.

George Patterson
"Naked" means you ain't got no clothes on; "nekkid" means you ain't got
no clothes on - and are up to somethin'.

On Fri, 13 May 2005 16:26:21 GMT, George Patterson
wrote:

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

One other thought: those who are feeling superior to these poor schmucks ought
to think back to when they were low time pilots. Have they never gotten lost?

The pilot in command apparently is not low time.

Many years ago he apparently was named "Flying Farmer of The Year"
some place or other.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

George Patterson
"Naked" means you ain't got no clothes on; "nekkid" means you ain't got
no clothes on - and are up to somethin'.

On Thu, 12 May 2005 02:55:43 GMT, "airman"
wrote:

The CNN pilot-reporter, Miles O'Brien, made a good point. These guys took
off from an uncontrolled airfield, implying that they were not adept with
ordinary ATC as would pilots be who were trained or who are resident at a
Class D or C towered field. I remember how difficult it was to train at a
Class D airport, wishing that I could have made my early training hours
easier at an un-towered field. Now I'm grateful for all the angst and
mike-fright I went through and eventually overcame.

Never had that problem.
I trained out of an uncontrolled field, but it's only 11.3 to one that
is. My instructors made sure I was over there a lot.

Would it have made any difference had they taken off from a controlled
field? Most likely not.

When the President was here in Michigan the TFR was centered on MBS
which put us just slightly outside of the no fly zone. Still in the
TFR though. We sat there listening to a plane that was coming from
down around Detroit that had taken off from one of the controlled
fields. As he was tooling through MBS's air space he remarked,
"Ahhh... MBS approach, there's a jet off my wing tip! What does that
mean?" I remember he was headed for Harbor Beach which is one of the
rich resort areas.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Howdy!

In article .com,
Bucky wrote:
Michael Houghton wrote:
I call bull**** on you.
First for calling it "kidnapping".

OK, "kidnapping" was overstated. Change it to "seized by force and
intimidation".

Technically accurate, but overblown rhetoric.

The raid was a consequence of the refusal to surrender custody
of the boy as directed by a competent court, and in accordance
with basic principles of child custody. The family holding Elien
seemed unable to admit that the father should have custody since
the mother was dead. No sensible reason was adduced for why the
father was incompetent to have custody. If there was any
"kidnapping" going on, it was the extended family doing it,
and the raid could be cast as a "rescue mission". Given the
posturing by the family, using a display of force to intimidate
the "kidnappers" to prevent them from resisting was not way out
of line.

Second for
misrepresenting the placement of the rifle

What part of "pointing an assault rifle inches from the boy's face" was
misrepresented?
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/images/l...an/elian_a.jpg

(and conveniently ignoring
the important (and easily seen) placement of the trigger finger).

Oh that's right, with the barrel of an assault rifle pointed inches
from his face, Elian was able to remain calm and unfrightened because
he noticed that the agent's trigger finger was one inch away from the
trigger. It was nice to know this fact afterwards, but during the
situation it was irrelevant where the trigger finger was or whether the
rifle was even loaded.

The detail of where the officer's trigger finger was placed shows that
the officer was using proper gun discipline. Eline is clearly frightened
in that picture. Who wouldn't be? Objectively, there was very little risk
of an accidental discharge of the gun. In addition, note that the gun
appears to be clearly pointed at the man holding Elien, not Elien.

You chose to use language that seriously miscast the whole affair as
some sort of abuse of authority. In point of fact and law, the raid was
most akin to a hostage rescue -- one carried off with no casualties aside,
possibly, from some underwear.

Well, you only addressed my example. So does that mean you concur with
the first part of my statement? "This kind of treatment is routine. If
this is the worst case of unnecessary force used by law enforcement,
then we're in really good shape."

I reject your thesis that that was "unnecessary force". What basis do you
have for that claim? Without that thesis, the rest of your statement has
no value.

yours,
Michael

--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/wwap/