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#61
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ASW20 or LS6
On Feb 5, 9:29*am, T8 wrote:
On Feb 5, 8:16*am, Martin Gregorie wrote: On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 18:31:23 -0800, Marc wrote: I've owned a 20B, plus had several flights each in a couple of different 20s and a 20C. *The 20B and 20C both had beautiful handling, no tendency to spin unless forced, and were well mannered in all configurations. One 20 (low serial number, IIRC) would spin without much warning in thermal or landing flap and always in the same direction (over the top if I was turning the opposite way), the other would do so only in landing flap, both seemed a bit twitchy at times. I suspect Schleicher was still learning how to build glass gliders in a repeatable fashion during the 20 production run, the 20B/C show the benefits of experience (plus reduced landing flap travel)... Curiosity: have you any idea what the serials were for those 20s? Mine was 20034, so fairly early... Other significant sources of variability are rigging of flaps & ailerons, type & condition of seals... and of course now more than half the 20 fleet flies with winglets of one sort or another, these make a difference too (especially the odd installation with more toe on one side than the other). You really do need to treat these ships as individuals. *My 20B is a pussycat in #4 and L, it's a little sharp in #3. *I fly it at 90% aft, with winglets. *It flies straight, the spin behavior is symmetric... but it does have a eccentric lift pin that someone installed to get it that way. Question for Dan: when you swapped ships with the 20B pilot, how much different were you two in weight? *Your story could be explained rather neatly if you were a bigger guy than your friend. *I haven't flown a 6. *Tried to buy one, but the owner wasn't ready to sell. *I ended up with the 20B a few weeks later, have not regretted this. Cockpit, controls, landing flaps, landing gear and wheel brake are all better or a lot better on the 20B. *However it's certainly true that the 20 flies best if you keep the roll rates about 1/2 of maximum. *At high aileron deflections, she gets a little draggy. *Not sure if I want to fly a 6... I'm pretty happy with my ship, want to stay that way! -Evan Ludeman / T8 Evan, I swapped with Tom Serkowski (5Z) and I think it was a 20B (stiff wings rather than floppy). I'm a bit taller than Tom but I think we're about the same weight and we both flew dry. After landing, I asked him what he thought and he held up the index finger of one hand and placed the palm of the other hand down on it indicating balancing on the point of a needle. My reply to his question was that I thought the 20 was on rails, meaning it was difficult to roll. I'm sure that's because of the difference in handling qualities of the two - the LS-6a being extremely light on the controls. Hope that answers your question. |
#62
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ASW20 or LS6
The ASW20 in its day was/is a racing thoroughbred, set up properly and
flown by a experienced pilot was the best glider in its era. But it is not tolerant of mishandling, in particular use the flaps wrongly and it will bite you and in common with other designs of the time the wing is biased to a climb profile. Later designs used by the LS6, ASW27 and Ventus had much more cruise biased wings and outclassed the 20. The earlier LS6 A and B were OK but the 18m LS6C is the gem, as is the 18m LS8 and command premium price. As a 15m ship the ASW27 is still at the top of the tree and should be included in this discussion. In short if you are a switched on pilot with not many bucks you will love the ASW 20 and accept its vices. If you value the extra refinement and can pay double the bucks the LS6C is a damn good choice. Enjoy either for your own pleasure and goals, neither will make you world champion, Dave At 17:44 05 February 2011, Marc wrote: On Feb 5, 5:16=A0am, Martin Gregorie wrote: On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 18:31:23 -0800, Marc wrote: I've owned a 20B, plus had several flights each in a couple of differen= t 20s and a 20C. =A0The 20B and 20C both had beautiful handling, no tende= ncy to spin unless forced, and were well mannered in all configurations. One 20 (low serial number, IIRC) would spin without much warning in thermal or landing flap and always in the same direction (over the top if I was turning the opposite way), the other would do so only in landing flap, both seemed a bit twitchy at times. I suspect Schleicher was still learning how to build glass gliders in a repeatable fashion during the 20 production run, the 20B/C show the benefits of experience (plus reduced landing flap travel)... Curiosity: have you any idea what the serials were for those 20s? Mine was 20034, so fairly early... The worst of the two was in the single digits, it was destroyed several years later in a fatal stall/spin accident with a low time pilot at the controls. The other one I have no idea about. I'll also mention that the most important reason I had at the time for buying a used 20B instead of a 20 was the automatic elevator hookup, I've had two soaring friends die as a result of disconnected elevators, and both were far more diligent pilots than I... Marc |
#63
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ASW20 or LS6
On Feb 5, 2:10*pm, David Smith wrote:
In short if you are a switched on pilot with not many bucks you will love the ASW 20 and accept its vices. If you value the extra refinement and can pay double the bucks the LS6C is a damn good choice. Enjoy either for your own pleasure and goals, neither will make you world champion, I'm going to faintly disagree with you here, and say that the vices had been pretty much worked out by the time the 20B and C went into production, I've never heard of anyone having problems with either. The 20 is a mixed bag, some (perhaps most) are apparently fine if set up with non-aggressive CG, others seem to have issues with stall/spin characteristics no matter how they are set up. The higher prices commanded by the B and C models likewise reflect that extra refinement... Marc |
#64
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ASW20 or LS6
On 2/5/2011 2:10 PM, David Smith wrote:
The ASW20 in its day was/is a racing thoroughbred, set up properly and flown by a experienced pilot was the best glider in its era. But it is not tolerant of mishandling, in particular use the flaps wrongly and it will bite you and in common with other designs of the time the wing is biased to a climb profile. Later designs used by the LS6, ASW27 and Ventus had much more cruise biased wings and outclassed the 20. The earlier LS6 A and B were OK but the 18m LS6C is the gem, as is the 18m LS8 and command premium price. As a 15m ship the ASW27 is still at the top of the tree and should be included in this discussion. The LS6 is same vintage as the ASW 20B/C, at least a generation behind the ASW 27. The :S6 a fine glider, but it is not a match for the ASW 27. This pilot, and the other ASW 20 (and B/C) pilots I know, did not find the LS6 to be superior in contests. If you can afford an ASW 27, I strongly recommend it over the ASW 20 and the LS6. It has a far more crash resistant cockpit, all self-connecting controls, landing flaps, airbrakes that won't suck out, a disc brake on the main wheel, and wonderful performance. It makes the LS6 and ASW 20 seem very old fashioned. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) |
#65
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ASW20 or LS6
Memories are funny things Eric, you forgot the LS6 won 4 world
championships, in 85, 87, 91 and 93 the ASW20 won once in 81 coming second to a Ventus in 83 at Hobbs. But that is not to decry the 20, at 30 years old it "IS" best bang for your bucks and still holds its value. The higher price you will pay for an LS6 reflects the greater desirability and the later 18m version is the most desirable of all. It stayed in production until 2003, but in later years the factory was making mostly LS8s, another desirable glider that will not be cheap. In todays market recreational pilots want 18m span and an engine if possible but an 18m LS6 will cost more than a Ventus C turbo of similar age. However, lets not get into a discussion on the merits or demerits of engines in gliders. David At 02:41 06 February 2011, Eric Greenwell wrote: On 2/5/2011 2:10 PM, David Smith wrote: The ASW20 in its day was/is a racing thoroughbred, set up properly and flown by a experienced pilot was the best glider in its era. But it is not tolerant of mishandling, in particular use the flaps wrongly and it will bite you and in common with other designs of the time the wing is biased to a climb profile. Later designs used by the LS6, ASW27 and Ventus had much more cruise biased wings and outclassed the 20. The earlier LS6 A and B were OK but the 18m LS6C is the gem, as is the 18m LS8 and command premium price. As a 15m ship the ASW27 is still at the top of the tree and should be included in this discussion. The LS6 is same vintage as the ASW 20B/C, at least a generation behind the ASW 27. The :S6 a fine glider, but it is not a match for the ASW 27. This pilot, and the other ASW 20 (and B/C) pilots I know, did not find the LS6 to be superior in contests. If you can afford an ASW 27, I strongly recommend it over the ASW 20 and the LS6. It has a far more crash resistant cockpit, all self-connecting controls, landing flaps, airbrakes that won't suck out, a disc brake on the main wheel, and wonderful performance. It makes the LS6 and ASW 20 seem very old fashioned. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) |
#66
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ASW20 or LS6
On 2/6/2011 9:54 AM, David Smith wrote:
Memories are funny things Eric, you forgot the LS6 won 4 world championships, in 85, 87, 91 and 93 the ASW20 won once in 81 coming second to a Ventus in 83 at Hobbs. But that is not to decry the 20, at 30 years old it "IS" best bang for your bucks and still holds its value. I didn't forget that - my remarks were personal observations from flying against L6s recreationally and in contests, and reports from other LS6 and ASW20 owners doing the same. I have also observed the ASW27 is noticeably superior to an ASW20, and that is why I don't lump the LS6 with the 27, but put it with the 20. The higher price you will pay for an LS6 reflects the greater desirability Oddly, that did not translate into sales, with the ASW20 variants selling over 1,000, and LS6 variants at about 375 (wikipedia figure). If the LS6 does command a higher price, perhaps it is the shortage of gliders available, and not the desirability that accounts for it. I'm not suggesting the L6 is in any way inferior to the ASW20, just that it is not superior, and definitely not in the ASW 27 class. and the later 18m version is the most desirable of all. It stayed in production until 2003, but in later years the factory was making mostly LS8s, another desirable glider that will not be cheap. I'm pretty sure the OP was not looking for 18 meter span gliders, which is a very different discussion, and excludes the 20 he was asking about. In todays market recreational pilots want 18m span and an engine if possible but an 18m LS6 will cost more than a Ventus C turbo of similar age. However, lets not get into a discussion on the merits or demerits of engines in gliders. Why not? In another thread, of course. I love that discussion! "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know http://tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) |
#67
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ASW20 or LS6
On Feb 6, 1:39*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 2/6/2011 9:54 AM, David Smith wrote: Memories are funny things Eric, you forgot the LS6 won 4 world championships, in 85, 87, 91 and 93 the ASW20 won once in 81 coming second to a Ventus in 83 at Hobbs. But that is not to decry the 20, at 30 years old it "IS" best bang for your bucks and still holds its value. I didn't forget that - my remarks were personal observations from flying against L6s recreationally and in contests, and reports from other LS6 and ASW20 owners doing the same. I have also observed the ASW27 is noticeably superior to an ASW20, and that is why I don't lump the LS6 with the 27, but put it with the 20. You're both right. Except that to suggest that any given glider did the winning is just silly. The nut on the stick does that, always. What he wins *in* is generally "the ship du jour", which is as much a feature of fad and fashion as anything else. Eric, your observations leave out what (second generation) winglets do for the 20 -- not for the least reason that the original droop tip was a real aerodynamic dog. Modern tweaks on the 20B render a surprisingly competitive glider in 15m. Ask UH, it goes. -Evan Ludeman / T8 |
#68
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ASW20 or LS6
On Feb 6, 3:11*pm, T8 wrote:
On Feb 6, 1:39*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote: On 2/6/2011 9:54 AM, David Smith wrote: Memories are funny things Eric, you forgot the LS6 won 4 world championships, in 85, 87, 91 and 93 the ASW20 won once in 81 coming second to a Ventus in 83 at Hobbs. But that is not to decry the 20, at 30 years old it "IS" best bang for your bucks and still holds its value. I didn't forget that - my remarks were personal observations from flying against L6s recreationally and in contests, and reports from other LS6 and ASW20 owners doing the same. I have also observed the ASW27 is noticeably superior to an ASW20, and that is why I don't lump the LS6 with the 27, but put it with the 20. You're both right. *Except that to suggest that any given glider did the winning is just silly. *The nut on the stick does that, always. What he wins *in* is generally "the ship du jour", which is as much a feature of fad and fashion as anything else. Eric, your observations leave out what (second generation) winglets do for the 20 -- not for the least reason that the original droop tip was a real aerodynamic dog. Modern tweaks on the 20B render a surprisingly competitive glider in 15m. *Ask UH, it goes. -Evan Ludeman / T8 Yes I too would be interested in what improvements are made with the added winglets. One of the 20B's I am considering has the aftermarket winglets added..still 15m ship after winglets were added. |
#69
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ASW20 or LS6
On Feb 6, 10:34*pm, binks wrote:
Yes I too would be interested in what improvements are made with the added winglets. One of the 20B's I am considering has the aftermarket winglets added..still 15m ship after winglets were added. The only thing you'll notice unless you are racing "Nascar style" close is an improvement in handling and stall/spin behavior. We're talking about an improvement as measured in average cross country speed of about 2%. Flying for fun, that 2% is pretty meaningless. But in a 15m contest, the difference between a factory original 20B and a 27 is about 3% (at least the CH handicap for sports says so)... now you get the picture. -Evan Ludeman / T8 |
#70
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ASW20 or LS6
On Feb 5, 8:41*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
The :S6 a fine glider, but it is not a match for the ASW 27. This pilot, and the other ASW 20 (and B/C) pilots I know, did not *find the LS6 to be superior in contests. My personal experience from flying and racing my 6b against ASW-20s, ASW 27s, etc is that overall, the 6 is slightly better than the 20, and the 27 is slightly better than the 6. And the 29 is slightly better than the 27. Of course, individual gliders vary enough to make up the difference - in particular, some 27s I found easy to outrun and outclimb, while others just plain left me in the dust. As always, it mainly the nut holding the stick... All are great gliders! Kirk 66 |
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