How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 4:37:23 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
Maybe I'll go to Chilhowee and knock that rating out. How long does it take to get a CFIG?

Sincerely,

Sean

Why don't you ask the Chilhowee operator/instructor (and former U.S. National champion) who keeps telling you she doesn't appreciate being scored separately in a contest just because she's a woman.

Recognition good; condescension bad.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 5:49:54 PM UTC-4, Bob Pasker wrote:
as someone who needs no additional inspiration to become an XC glider pilot (I have Silver Altitude and Silver Distance, and have flown 4.5 and 8.0 with Kempton in his ASH-25), here are the obstacles:

A glider. I either have to buy a glider and only fly out of a local airpot (Blairstown or Wurstburo), since I don't neither have a vehicle that can tow a glider nor do I have the time to tow it anywhere. Or I have to find a club that allows XC flights. I have tried to contact Blairstown numerous times, and nobody answers their email. Wurstboro is only open week-ends, and is therefore less desirable. Lastly, I can continue to rent out of commercial operations, but all of them have been fairly unwilling to let me take a glider out of the local area without substantial time in the area, with the notable except of Soaring NV.

Graduated training flights. It would be great if the locals would put up on their website some proposed training flights of increasing difficulty suited to the terrain and the typical weather of for the area. These graduated training flights should be structured around Silver Distance, Gold Distance, and Diamond Goal. For example, for Silver Distance as a triangle, there could be two practice flights, out and back to each of the other two points on the triangle, and then the third for all three points.

Dual XC flights. For those of you who have single-seat gliders, get current in a mid-performance two-seater and take people on cross-country flights.. Kempton took me on two flights last month (see OLC links below), and I learned more in one hour of XC with him than I have from anyone else. You don't have to be a CFI. Any one who is ready for XC should be able to learn just from watching and asking questions.

http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0...tId=-925876405
http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0...tId=-976935827

Contest training. No where have I seen any in-person training on how to actually fly a contest (which doesn't mean it doesn't exist). I would love to see a 1-hour training video that takes me through the entire process, or even a "contest training camp" (maybe the OLC camp?)

I guess this is a pretty good start.

--bob

Blairstown has one of the most active cross country clubs in the US, Aero Club Albatross. They has 1-26's to do XC in. They have a 1-34, an LS-4, and an LS-3. They also base a 1-34 at Wurtsboro which is open weekends an most week days.
I run a "rookie school" at the annual Region 2 contest which involves classroom training and active mentoring. That is done in coordination with the Region 2 "Bus class" contest which is flown using trainer class 2 seaters such as ASK-21's and Grob twins.
Our club members at Valley Soaring Club in Middletown either do their Silver distance by going to Blairstown, commonly in the club 1-26 or 1-34, or by doing a closed course that uses a declared remote start and remote finish.
Lots of people fly XC from sites around an hour from NYC.
UH

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 3:51:50 PM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 12:19:16 -0700, pstrzel wrote:

flying cross-country solo requires years of experience.

All due respect, but this is quite wrong given a suitable club culture.

A very high proportion of new solo pilots at my UK club will be flying XC
within 18 months of their first solo.


Well, 1.5 years is still more than 1 year, so "years" is still technically correct. :-). I believe for the right person it can be done within a season, but goals need to be set by the individual and a road map to their attainment made available by the club. Your point about the suitable club culture is I believe the whole point of this discussion.


The pursuit of mastery isn't always fun.

I'd disagree: putting in the time, thought and practise to hone a complex
skill, such as soaring, can be very pleasurable. But, maybe I'm just
weird.

This may be semantics more than a disagreement as "isn't always" is in the same category as "can be".

Cheers,

Piotr S.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 14:49:52 -0700, Bob Pasker wrote:

Graduated training flights. It would be great if the locals would put up
on their website some proposed training flights of increasing difficulty
suited to the terrain and the typical weather of for the area. These
graduated training flights should be structured around Silver Distance,
Gold Distance, and Diamond Goal. For example, for Silver Distance as a
triangle, there could be two practice flights, out and back to each of
the other two points on the triangle, and then the third for all three
points.

Just wanna pick one nit: hope you don't mind. You can't use a 50km closed
course for Silver C because its essentially awarded for a straight flight
of 50km, presumably to get you used to going out of gliding range from
home. Without that restriction you'd get people drawing a roughly
equilateral 50km triangle centred on the home airfield. But that wouldn't
really be an XC at all because its furthest points are barely 12 miles
from home.

Is the 100km diploma recognised in America? If so, just double the
triangle size and you've got a nice sized closed course for a new XC
pilot to tackle after the Silver distance. Besides, 50 km to gold 300 is
a bit of a leap. Even an older glider can do 100 km in 2 hours or less so
changing weather conditions probably isn't an issue, but even a mid-range
toy (Pegase or ASW-20) is going to need 4 - 4.5 hours to do 300 km in the
hands of a relative novice and so dealing with changing conditions, due
to both the time of day and to flying into different parts of the
country, become relevant.

But I agree that having a set of recognised club tasks is a good idea,
and even better if a few of them have a perpetual trophy for the fastest
flight during the year.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 8:03:25 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 14:49:52 -0700, Bob Pasker wrote:

Graduated training flights. It would be great if the locals would put up
on their website some proposed training flights of increasing difficulty
suited to the terrain and the typical weather of for the area. These
graduated training flights should be structured around Silver Distance,
Gold Distance, and Diamond Goal. For example, for Silver Distance as a
triangle, there could be two practice flights, out and back to each of
the other two points on the triangle, and then the third for all three
points.

Just wanna pick one nit: hope you don't mind. You can't use a 50km closed
course for Silver C because its essentially awarded for a straight flight
of 50km, presumably to get you used to going out of gliding range from
home. Without that restriction you'd get people drawing a roughly
equilateral 50km triangle centred on the home airfield. But that wouldn't
really be an XC at all because its furthest points are barely 12 miles
from home.

Is the 100km diploma recognised in America? If so, just double the
triangle size and you've got a nice sized closed course for a new XC
pilot to tackle after the Silver distance. Besides, 50 km to gold 300 is
a bit of a leap. Even an older glider can do 100 km in 2 hours or less so
changing weather conditions probably isn't an issue, but even a mid-range
toy (Pegase or ASW-20) is going to need 4 - 4.5 hours to do 300 km in the
hands of a relative novice and so dealing with changing conditions, due
to both the time of day and to flying into different parts of the
country, become relevant.

But I agree that having a set of recognised club tasks is a good idea,
and even better if a few of them have a perpetual trophy for the fastest
flight during the year.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Unless there has been a change that I am not aware of, one can declare a remote start point, fly to a remote finish. and return to the home base. Altitude loss is calculated from release height to height at finish point. The task some of our folks have done for this turns out to require about a 130k flight which seems about right if one is flying modern glass.
UH

I'm forever indebted to the CFI-Gs who proved that with enough patience (and $s) almost anyone can learn to fly a glider.

CFI-Gs who don't have the skills or ambition to go farther than glide slope from the airport influence their students.

A highly respected CFI-G says "I NEVER want to land out" (to budding pilots gathered around the picnic table). "That's just dumb. Why would you get off tow below 1500 AGL? Why take that risk?"

Train CFI-Gs in XC, and train CFI-Gs how to develop those skills in students.

On 8/18/2015 6:21 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
I'm forever indebted to the CFI-Gs who proved that with enough patience
(and $s) almost anyone can learn to fly a glider.

CFI-Gs who don't have the skills or ambition to go farther than glide slope
from the airport influence their students.

A highly respected CFI-G says "I NEVER want to land out" (to budding pilots
gathered around the picnic table). "That's just dumb. Why would you get
off tow below 1500 AGL? Why take that risk?"

Not to be too anal about this particular situation, but for that particular
instructor's (I infer) lack of landout-related skills, I'd agree that putting
him/herself in a landout situation *would* be dumb. The trick for listeners is
to be sufficiently knowledgeable so's to understand said instructor's hidden
assumptions (non-antagonistic conversation helpful?), and thus, to be able to
intelligently decide if they apply to the listener. If they don't, there's
plenty of available evidence that "all over the board" opinions about the
wisdom of XC & landouts exist in every little bit of the U.S. clubs' soaring
world to which I've ever been exposed. Entirely normal human behavior.

FWIW, so far as I know, I was the first tyro licensee to make a landout in my
first club's recent history...adequately and safely taught by an instructor,
as I subsequently learned while retrieving him from a landout, who'd yet to
make *his* first landout. The club back then had plenty of flagpole sitters,
and a few seriously-beyond-my-newbie-skill-set ridge runners. (My flight
examiner then held the world O&R record.) It was clear to me that each pilot
chose his/her level of soaring participation, and such an approach seemed
entirely normal to me; still does.

Point being, circling back to your instructor's picnic table expounding, in
the absence of some sort of enlightening conversation actually discussing
*why* an instructor feels as they expound, why would Joe Listener want to take
any of their opinions beyond those directly applying to J.L.'s growing skills,
as universal gospel? Looking back, for me it was dirt simple to distinguish
beyond instruction likely to be directly applicable to my next instructional
flight, and my instructor's opining about "the more-distant future's"
requisite, or merely desirable, skills. Even though I was convinced he could
walk on water...

Bob - genuinely curious - W.

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 8:17:51 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 8:03:25 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 14:49:52 -0700, Bob Pasker wrote:

Graduated training flights. It would be great if the locals would put up
on their website some proposed training flights of increasing difficulty
suited to the terrain and the typical weather of for the area. These
graduated training flights should be structured around Silver Distance,
Gold Distance, and Diamond Goal. For example, for Silver Distance as a
triangle, there could be two practice flights, out and back to each of
the other two points on the triangle, and then the third for all three
points.

Just wanna pick one nit: hope you don't mind. You can't use a 50km closed
course for Silver C because its essentially awarded for a straight flight
of 50km, presumably to get you used to going out of gliding range from
home. Without that restriction you'd get people drawing a roughly
equilateral 50km triangle centred on the home airfield. But that wouldn't
really be an XC at all because its furthest points are barely 12 miles
from home.

Is the 100km diploma recognised in America? If so, just double the
triangle size and you've got a nice sized closed course for a new XC
pilot to tackle after the Silver distance. Besides, 50 km to gold 300 is
a bit of a leap. Even an older glider can do 100 km in 2 hours or less so
changing weather conditions probably isn't an issue, but even a mid-range
toy (Pegase or ASW-20) is going to need 4 - 4.5 hours to do 300 km in the
hands of a relative novice and so dealing with changing conditions, due
to both the time of day and to flying into different parts of the
country, become relevant.

But I agree that having a set of recognised club tasks is a good idea,
and even better if a few of them have a perpetual trophy for the fastest
flight during the year.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Unless there has been a change that I am not aware of, one can declare a remote start point, fly to a remote finish. and return to the home base. Altitude loss is calculated from release height to height at finish point. The task some of our folks have done for this turns out to require about a 130k flight which seems about right if one is flying modern glass.
UH

No change - yet. In the Sporting Code that will become effective 1 Oct 2015:

"a. SILVER DISTANCE A distance flight (as defined in 1.4.2d to 1.4.2h) to a finish or turn point at least 50 km from release or MoP stop."

Look at http://www.fai.org/igc-documents , then Sporting Code, then Next Edition.

The current SC3 allows it; if anyone wants to do it as described above, the time is now (until 30 September).

Martin, the 100 km Diploma is not recognized in North America.

2D

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 7:39:45 PM UTC-6, Dan Daly wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 8:17:51 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 8:03:25 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 14:49:52 -0700, Bob Pasker wrote:

Graduated training flights. It would be great if the locals would put up
on their website some proposed training flights of increasing difficulty
suited to the terrain and the typical weather of for the area. These
graduated training flights should be structured around Silver Distance,
Gold Distance, and Diamond Goal. For example, for Silver Distance as a
triangle, there could be two practice flights, out and back to each of
the other two points on the triangle, and then the third for all three
points.

Just wanna pick one nit: hope you don't mind. You can't use a 50km closed
course for Silver C because its essentially awarded for a straight flight
of 50km, presumably to get you used to going out of gliding range from
home. Without that restriction you'd get people drawing a roughly
equilateral 50km triangle centred on the home airfield. But that wouldn't
really be an XC at all because its furthest points are barely 12 miles
from home.

Is the 100km diploma recognised in America? If so, just double the
triangle size and you've got a nice sized closed course for a new XC
pilot to tackle after the Silver distance. Besides, 50 km to gold 300 is
a bit of a leap. Even an older glider can do 100 km in 2 hours or less so
changing weather conditions probably isn't an issue, but even a mid-range
toy (Pegase or ASW-20) is going to need 4 - 4.5 hours to do 300 km in the
hands of a relative novice and so dealing with changing conditions, due
to both the time of day and to flying into different parts of the
country, become relevant.

But I agree that having a set of recognised club tasks is a good idea,
and even better if a few of them have a perpetual trophy for the fastest
flight during the year.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Unless there has been a change that I am not aware of, one can declare a remote start point, fly to a remote finish. and return to the home base. Altitude loss is calculated from release height to height at finish point. The task some of our folks have done for this turns out to require about a 130k flight which seems about right if one is flying modern glass.
UH

No change - yet. In the Sporting Code that will become effective 1 Oct 2015:

"a. SILVER DISTANCE A distance flight (as defined in 1.4.2d to 1.4.2h) to a finish or turn point at least 50 km from release or MoP stop."

Look at http://www.fai.org/igc-documents , then Sporting Code, then Next Edition.

The current SC3 allows it; if anyone wants to do it as described above, the time is now (until 30 September).

Martin, the 100 km Diploma is not recognized in North America.

2D

For young pilots we, in the US, do have the Kolstad Century Awards, which can be qualifying flights for the Kolstad College Scholarship, currently $5000. Applications due September 30th.

If you ever needed a reason to mentor a junior pilot to fly cross country, you have one. FAI Silver badges or better also are qualifying flights.

http://www.ssa.org/Youth?show=blog&id=2406

Frank Whiteley

On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 3:21:16 AM UTC+3, son_of_flubber wrote:
A highly respected CFI-G says "I NEVER want to land out" (to budding pilots gathered around the picnic table). "That's just dumb. Why would you get off tow below 1500 AGL? Why take that risk?"

I have a number of times had tow pilots approach me after I landed from a multi-hour flight and ask why I got off at 800 ft or 1000 ft above launch height. Was there something wrong with the tow? No -- we flew through a big fat thermal!

I'm actually amazed, when I fly with other pilots, how many carry on through juicy thermals to the launch height they already had in their heads.

If you're flying along and suddenly the towplane shoots up above you, start counting. If the vario is now reading 10 (5 for euros) and you've counted past ten before the townplane suddenly drops away below you then just release and turn back hard.

Of course, there's increased risk of it not really working and landing back for a relight. But I can't actually think of a time when it happened to me on a day when others were successfully soaring.

One of the closest was when I was visiting the US and found a club near Joliet IL. Jumped in a Duo (a type I hadn't flown before, though I knew the Janus pretty well) with an instructor and surprised the heck out of him by releasing at 700 ft AGL. It very nearly didn't work, with about 15 min of scratching at around launch height. But then I got away to 4000 ft and we went on a nice tour of the area. (there was never any question of not being able to make it back, of course)