Which airplane for teenagers to build????

Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,
I teach math in an inner city high school in Southern Illinois.
I've been studying airplane projects to build myself alone but also
have thought about forming a high school aviation club to build an
airplane. There is at least one one high school building the Zenith
701 and Aircraft Spruce donated a Stolp Starduster kit to another high
school. The airplanes that I have researched and would like to build
myself include the following: Wittman Tailwind and Buttercup, Long-EZ,
Cozy Mark IV, KR-2, Christavia, Sonex Vision, Bearhawk, Zenair Zodiac,
Zenair 601 and Zenair 701, Thorpe T-18 , BD-4, and the Falconar to
name a few. Many of these at some point I've convinced myself,
"that's the airplane for me" and just before ordering the plans.....I
change my mind. I've been studying homebuilt airplanes for a couple of
years now and there probably isn't a homebuilt design that I haven't
read about. I know the least about wooden airplanes but wouldn't
exclude this type of building material in my choice.
I've talked with the welding department at the high school and
the instructor said he'd help weld a 4130 fuselage as they have a tig
welder. Keep in mind though the idea that this is a group high school
project. I'm not sure which type of project that would afford an
opportunity for high school students (rather unskilled) to get
involved with, to contribute to by using their hands. For example
with a wooden wing, probably each student could make a rib for the
wings. With an aluminum airplane students also each could make an
aluminum rib, the type that are formed around a wooden template with a
mallet. It seems like mistakes on a rib wouldn't affect a huge
component and quality control could be managed. Ruin a rib, toss it
aside and try again. I'm not sure if a mistake in welding a 4130 tube
fuselage could be corrected easily. Basically you want students to
contribute with simple tasks where mistakes could be fixed without
costing too much. With an aluminum airplane students could drill
holes, deburr and rivet. I'm not sure how easily mistakes in aluminum
can be repaired, say someone who dents the skin when riveting. How do
you fix a mistake on an aluminum skin, say someone drills some holes
wrong? Can they be filled?
Composite construction involves dangerous chemicals which
wouldn't bother me as I used to be in the chemical and fume rich
electroplating business, but you don't want students breaking out in
rashes. However, on a composite airplane there might be opportunity
for students to perform the labor intensive sanding, sanding and
sanding. So the basic 2 questions are 1) Which type of airplane
building method would provide the most opportunity for unskilled high
school students to learn and contribute to .......aluminum, tube and
fabric, composite or wood. 2) Based on your choice in #1 which
specific airplane then would be the best candidate to build?
Our high school is known as the East St. Louis "Flyers" being
influenced by a close proximity to St. Louis made famous by Charles
Lindbergh and the "Spirit of St. Louis Airplane."


Thanks,
Andrew

Why not something built primarily from wood? This would eliminate many of
the highest skill tasks such as welding, riveting, and/or making composite
lay-ups. It would take a lot of the risk and variability out of the project.
Also, it would give the students a sense of accomplishment because most or
all of them (presumably) could measure, cut, and glue wood together without
a big (frustrating) learning curve, allowing them to see progress quickly.

How 'bout a Bowers Flybaby or one of the Team designs like a Mini-max?

KB


"Andrew" wrote in message
oups.com...
Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,
I teach math in an inner city high school in Southern Illinois.
I've been studying airplane projects to build myself alone but also
have thought about forming a high school aviation club to build an
airplane. There is at least one one high school building the Zenith
701 and Aircraft Spruce donated a Stolp Starduster kit to another high
school. The airplanes that I have researched and would like to build
myself include the following: Wittman Tailwind and Buttercup, Long-EZ,
Cozy Mark IV, KR-2, Christavia, Sonex Vision, Bearhawk, Zenair Zodiac,
Zenair 601 and Zenair 701, Thorpe T-18 , BD-4, and the Falconar to
name a few. Many of these at some point I've convinced myself,
"that's the airplane for me" and just before ordering the plans.....I
change my mind. I've been studying homebuilt airplanes for a couple of
years now and there probably isn't a homebuilt design that I haven't
read about. I know the least about wooden airplanes but wouldn't
exclude this type of building material in my choice.
I've talked with the welding department at the high school and
the instructor said he'd help weld a 4130 fuselage as they have a tig
welder. Keep in mind though the idea that this is a group high school
project. I'm not sure which type of project that would afford an
opportunity for high school students (rather unskilled) to get
involved with, to contribute to by using their hands. For example
with a wooden wing, probably each student could make a rib for the
wings. With an aluminum airplane students also each could make an
aluminum rib, the type that are formed around a wooden template with a
mallet. It seems like mistakes on a rib wouldn't affect a huge
component and quality control could be managed. Ruin a rib, toss it
aside and try again. I'm not sure if a mistake in welding a 4130 tube
fuselage could be corrected easily. Basically you want students to
contribute with simple tasks where mistakes could be fixed without
costing too much. With an aluminum airplane students could drill
holes, deburr and rivet. I'm not sure how easily mistakes in aluminum
can be repaired, say someone who dents the skin when riveting. How do
you fix a mistake on an aluminum skin, say someone drills some holes
wrong? Can they be filled?
Composite construction involves dangerous chemicals which
wouldn't bother me as I used to be in the chemical and fume rich
electroplating business, but you don't want students breaking out in
rashes. However, on a composite airplane there might be opportunity
for students to perform the labor intensive sanding, sanding and
sanding. So the basic 2 questions are 1) Which type of airplane
building method would provide the most opportunity for unskilled high
school students to learn and contribute to .......aluminum, tube and
fabric, composite or wood. 2) Based on your choice in #1 which
specific airplane then would be the best candidate to build?
Our high school is known as the East St. Louis "Flyers" being
influenced by a close proximity to St. Louis made famous by Charles
Lindbergh and the "Spirit of St. Louis Airplane."


Thanks,
Andrew

or possibly one of the Fisher Products, mostly wood.
John



On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:30:22 -0400, Kyle Boatright wrote:

Why not something built primarily from wood? This would eliminate many of
the highest skill tasks such as welding, riveting, and/or making composite
lay-ups. It would take a lot of the risk and variability out of the project.
Also, it would give the students a sense of accomplishment because most or
all of them (presumably) could measure, cut, and glue wood together without
a big (frustrating) learning curve, allowing them to see progress quickly.

How 'bout a Bowers Flybaby or one of the Team designs like a Mini-max?

KB


"Andrew" wrote in message
oups.com...
Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,
I teach math in an inner city high school in Southern Illinois.
I've been studying airplane projects to build myself alone but also
have thought about forming a high school aviation club to build an
airplane. There is at least one one high school building the Zenith
701 and Aircraft Spruce donated a Stolp Starduster kit to another high
school. The airplanes that I have researched and would like to build
myself include the following: Wittman Tailwind and Buttercup, Long-EZ,
Cozy Mark IV, KR-2, Christavia, Sonex Vision, Bearhawk, Zenair Zodiac,
Zenair 601 and Zenair 701, Thorpe T-18 , BD-4, and the Falconar to
name a few. Many of these at some point I've convinced myself,
"that's the airplane for me" and just before ordering the plans.....I
change my mind. I've been studying homebuilt airplanes for a couple of
years now and there probably isn't a homebuilt design that I haven't
read about. I know the least about wooden airplanes but wouldn't
exclude this type of building material in my choice.
I've talked with the welding department at the high school and
the instructor said he'd help weld a 4130 fuselage as they have a tig
welder. Keep in mind though the idea that this is a group high school
project. I'm not sure which type of project that would afford an
opportunity for high school students (rather unskilled) to get
involved with, to contribute to by using their hands. For example
with a wooden wing, probably each student could make a rib for the
wings. With an aluminum airplane students also each could make an
aluminum rib, the type that are formed around a wooden template with a
mallet. It seems like mistakes on a rib wouldn't affect a huge
component and quality control could be managed. Ruin a rib, toss it
aside and try again. I'm not sure if a mistake in welding a 4130 tube
fuselage could be corrected easily. Basically you want students to
contribute with simple tasks where mistakes could be fixed without
costing too much. With an aluminum airplane students could drill
holes, deburr and rivet. I'm not sure how easily mistakes in aluminum
can be repaired, say someone who dents the skin when riveting. How do
you fix a mistake on an aluminum skin, say someone drills some holes
wrong? Can they be filled?
Composite construction involves dangerous chemicals which
wouldn't bother me as I used to be in the chemical and fume rich
electroplating business, but you don't want students breaking out in
rashes. However, on a composite airplane there might be opportunity
for students to perform the labor intensive sanding, sanding and
sanding. So the basic 2 questions are 1) Which type of airplane
building method would provide the most opportunity for unskilled high
school students to learn and contribute to .......aluminum, tube and
fabric, composite or wood. 2) Based on your choice in #1 which
specific airplane then would be the best candidate to build?
Our high school is known as the East St. Louis "Flyers" being
influenced by a close proximity to St. Louis made famous by Charles
Lindbergh and the "Spirit of St. Louis Airplane."


Thanks,
Andrew

I would recommend keeping it much simpler. Look at the B.U.G.: basic
ultralight glider.

--
John Kimmel


I think it will be quiet around here now. So long.

On 24 Apr 2007 17:08:13 -0700, Andrew wrote:

Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,
I teach math in an inner city high school in Southern Illinois.
I've been studying airplane projects to build myself alone but also
have thought about forming a high school aviation club to build an
airplane.
Thanks,
Andrew

you need to build an aeroplane they can finish and one that they can
fly.
the Tailwind is a handful for inexperienced pilots.

your best bet is chris heintz' zenair zodiac hds. this is a simple
aeroplane which flies really sweetly on a jabiru 2200cc engine.
it looks good which is important and it uses simple constructional
methods.

if you want to build in wood Corby's CJ1 starlet is an aerobatic
single seater that is easy to build.

Stealth( I fly a Tailwind) Pilot

I would consider one of the Zenith's you mentioned for a couple of reasons.
First it's ease of construction. There are very few places where welding is
required and the rivets used in the vast majority of the aircraft are simple
pulled rivets as opposed to those that require bucking. The Zeniths can be
built with simple tools and scratch builders have come in less than $6,000
for the airframe.

Second since you are close enough to their factory in Mexico MO. that a
field trip to the factory is not out of the question. At least from a
distance stand point.

Also, (and I know this is going to get me flamed) from a training stand
point there are a lot more jobs that the skills learned in building the
aluminium aircraft will translate to as compaired to wood and fabric.




Andrew wrote:
Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,
I teach math in an inner city high school in Southern Illinois.
I've been studying airplane projects to build myself alone but also
have thought about forming a high school aviation club to build an
airplane. There is at least one one high school building the Zenith
701 and Aircraft Spruce donated a Stolp Starduster kit to another high
school. The airplanes that I have researched and would like to build
myself include the following: Wittman Tailwind and Buttercup, Long-EZ,
Cozy Mark IV, KR-2, Christavia, Sonex Vision, Bearhawk, Zenair Zodiac,
Zenair 601 and Zenair 701, Thorpe T-18 , BD-4, and the Falconar to
name a few. Many of these at some point I've convinced myself,
"that's the airplane for me" and just before ordering the plans.....I
change my mind. I've been studying homebuilt airplanes for a couple of
years now and there probably isn't a homebuilt design that I haven't
read about. I know the least about wooden airplanes but wouldn't
exclude this type of building material in my choice.
I've talked with the welding department at the high school and
the instructor said he'd help weld a 4130 fuselage as they have a tig
welder. Keep in mind though the idea that this is a group high school
project. I'm not sure which type of project that would afford an
opportunity for high school students (rather unskilled) to get
involved with, to contribute to by using their hands. For example
with a wooden wing, probably each student could make a rib for the
wings. With an aluminum airplane students also each could make an
aluminum rib, the type that are formed around a wooden template with a
mallet. It seems like mistakes on a rib wouldn't affect a huge
component and quality control could be managed. Ruin a rib, toss it
aside and try again. I'm not sure if a mistake in welding a 4130 tube
fuselage could be corrected easily. Basically you want students to
contribute with simple tasks where mistakes could be fixed without
costing too much. With an aluminum airplane students could drill
holes, deburr and rivet. I'm not sure how easily mistakes in aluminum
can be repaired, say someone who dents the skin when riveting. How do
you fix a mistake on an aluminum skin, say someone drills some holes
wrong? Can they be filled?
Composite construction involves dangerous chemicals which
wouldn't bother me as I used to be in the chemical and fume rich
electroplating business, but you don't want students breaking out in
rashes. However, on a composite airplane there might be opportunity
for students to perform the labor intensive sanding, sanding and
sanding. So the basic 2 questions are 1) Which type of airplane
building method would provide the most opportunity for unskilled high
school students to learn and contribute to .......aluminum, tube and
fabric, composite or wood. 2) Based on your choice in #1 which
specific airplane then would be the best candidate to build?
Our high school is known as the East St. Louis "Flyers" being
influenced by a close proximity to St. Louis made famous by Charles
Lindbergh and the "Spirit of St. Louis Airplane."


Thanks,
Andrew

"Andrew" wrote in message
oups.com...
Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,
I teach math in an inner city high school in Southern Illinois.
I've been studying airplane projects to build myself alone but also
have thought about forming a high school aviation club to build an
airplane.
(snip)
Keep in mind though the idea that this is a group high school
project. I'm not sure which type of project that would afford an
opportunity for high school students (rather unskilled) to get
involved with, to contribute to by using their hands.
(snip)
Our high school is known as the East St. Louis "Flyers" being
influenced by a close proximity to St. Louis made famous by Charles
Lindbergh and the "Spirit of St. Louis Airplane."


Thanks,
Andrew

A complete airplane, even a primary glider, is a big project.

Way back (about 40 years ago) in a junior college aerodynamics class, we
"built" little "wings" cut from 3x5 index cards, to demonstrate the effect
of planform. Even with a project that crude; which could be constructed in
about a minute, and balanced with chewing gum or a paper clip, a lot of good
information could be demonstrated. Those were accomplished by simply seeing
that the cut was made in such a way that the leading edge had a nearly
microscopic droop--if you build it backward, the performance will be
radically different.

Obviously, much more can be learned about both construction and results by
making a series of flying wing models that are larger and have thickness and
controlled camber.

Personally, I think that some type of model gliders might give you some
usefull results while you are evaluating the learning curve of your
students.

I hope this helps,
Peter

Stealth Pilot wrote:


your best bet is chris heintz' zenair zodiac hds. this is a simple
aeroplane which flies really sweetly on a jabiru 2200cc engine.
it looks good which is important and it uses simple constructional
methods.


Just a quick side note to this. I'd suggest the 601XL the cost is the same
and it is an updated version that is really much better supported now.

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in message
...
I would consider one of the Zenith's you mentioned for a couple of
reasons.
First it's ease of construction. There are very few places where welding
is
required and the rivets used in the vast majority of the aircraft are
simple
pulled rivets as opposed to those that require bucking. The Zeniths can be
built with simple tools and scratch builders have come in less than $6,000
for the airframe.

Second since you are close enough to their factory in Mexico MO. that a
field trip to the factory is not out of the question. At least from a
distance stand point.

Also, (and I know this is going to get me flamed) from a training stand
point there are a lot more jobs that the skills learned in building the
aluminium aircraft will translate to as compaired to wood and fabric.


I don't know why that would get you flamed.

I also don't know which skill set, if either of them, has a surplus of
craftsmen for the work to be done.

Peter

Have you considered the Rag Wing Aviation Storch? It's all wood and is
supposed to be rather simple to build Also it's a 2 seater so you could
take a students for a ride in the plane they helped build.

Tony

Andrew wrote:
Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,
I teach math in an inner city high school in Southern Illinois.
I've been studying airplane projects to build myself alone but also
have thought about forming a high school aviation club to build an
airplane. There is at least one one high school building the Zenith
701 and Aircraft Spruce donated a Stolp Starduster kit to another high
school. The airplanes that I have researched and would like to build
myself include the following: Wittman Tailwind and Buttercup, Long-EZ,
Cozy Mark IV, KR-2, Christavia, Sonex Vision, Bearhawk, Zenair Zodiac,
Zenair 601 and Zenair 701, Thorpe T-18 , BD-4, and the Falconar to
name a few. Many of these at some point I've convinced myself,
"that's the airplane for me" and just before ordering the plans.....I
change my mind. I've been studying homebuilt airplanes for a couple of
years now and there probably isn't a homebuilt design that I haven't
read about. I know the least about wooden airplanes but wouldn't
exclude this type of building material in my choice.
I've talked with the welding department at the high school and
the instructor said he'd help weld a 4130 fuselage as they have a tig
welder. Keep in mind though the idea that this is a group high school
project. I'm not sure which type of project that would afford an
opportunity for high school students (rather unskilled) to get
involved with, to contribute to by using their hands. For example
with a wooden wing, probably each student could make a rib for the
wings. With an aluminum airplane students also each could make an
aluminum rib, the type that are formed around a wooden template with a
mallet. It seems like mistakes on a rib wouldn't affect a huge
component and quality control could be managed. Ruin a rib, toss it
aside and try again. I'm not sure if a mistake in welding a 4130 tube
fuselage could be corrected easily. Basically you want students to
contribute with simple tasks where mistakes could be fixed without
costing too much. With an aluminum airplane students could drill
holes, deburr and rivet. I'm not sure how easily mistakes in aluminum
can be repaired, say someone who dents the skin when riveting. How do
you fix a mistake on an aluminum skin, say someone drills some holes
wrong? Can they be filled?
Composite construction involves dangerous chemicals which
wouldn't bother me as I used to be in the chemical and fume rich
electroplating business, but you don't want students breaking out in
rashes. However, on a composite airplane there might be opportunity
for students to perform the labor intensive sanding, sanding and
sanding. So the basic 2 questions are 1) Which type of airplane
building method would provide the most opportunity for unskilled high
school students to learn and contribute to .......aluminum, tube and
fabric, composite or wood. 2) Based on your choice in #1 which
specific airplane then would be the best candidate to build?
Our high school is known as the East St. Louis "Flyers" being
influenced by a close proximity to St. Louis made famous by Charles
Lindbergh and the "Spirit of St. Louis Airplane."


Thanks,
Andrew