Made in the USA

Ok, just spent a week at Oshgosh like quite a few of you and, although
I noticed this before it just hasn't changed much. How many LSA's are
made in the U.S.A.? I don't mean assembled, I mean, manufactured. Is it
really impossible for Americans to design, manufacture, and sell
products at a reasonable price and still make a living? Aircraft should
be one thing my country could excel at. We have everything needed,
materials, knowledge, ability, and desire, but most every aircraft in
this category is either imported or the parts are imported and then
assembled here.
I'm not talking about a product that cost more to make than to just
buy a cheap import. Light Sport planes have gone through the roof in
just a matter of a couple of years. You can't convince me that there
isn't a plane that can be designed and manufactured for a competitve
price. It's not that I am against any other country making a buck here.
I'm just very dissapointed in Americans not even trying. What happened
here?
Just a thought.
Lou

In a previous article, "Lou" said:
I noticed this before it just hasn't changed much. How many LSA's are
made in the U.S.A.? I don't mean assembled, I mean, manufactured. Is it
really impossible for Americans to design, manufacture, and sell

You have to remember that LSA is a response to an existing European class
(Microlight?). Most LSAs you see now were developed in Europe a few years
ago for that class - but as LSA matures, more US manufacturers will step
up. Just look at Cessna - they had a proof of concept demonstrator there,
and with their name recognition I bet they'd sell hundreds of them if they
went into production. All those flight schools looking to replace their
aging 150s would be a sure bet to prefer a new Cessna.

It will help when US manufacturers come up with an engine that can compete
with the Rotax and Jabiru ones.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
`I was all fired up to write a big rant, but instead found apathy to be a
more worthwhile solution.' --- Ashley Penney

You may be right about the LSA being a response to the mircrolights of
Eroupe, but it was my understanding that LSA was to lower the cost and
requirements of flying. This way USA would increase their pilot
community instead of the current decrease. Now I will agree with you
that Americans need to develop a good engine to compete rather than the
dissappointing choices we have now. Really, how hard can this be for
any of the current engine (not limited to aviation) manufacturer's to
figure out. Honda was smart enough to see that an airplane engine alone
was bringing in more money than some of thier cars.
As for Cessna's proof of concept. I would be very suprised if it sold
for under $120,000.
If this is the case I don't think you will see alot of 152's being
replaced with this airplane. They won't be targeting that group so
their advertising points will not be towards this group. After all if
you can get a plane with the same qualities as a Cessna for $20.000 and
the flight school needs five planes for replacement, It would be like a
buy 5 get one free sale.
Lou

In a previous article, "Lou" said:
You may be right about the LSA being a response to the mircrolights of
Eroupe, but it was my understanding that LSA was to lower the cost and

Look at the max gross weight on LSA. 1320 pounds isn't a very round
number and you might wonder why they chose it, but the Microlight class
was already limited to 600kg and they just converted that to pounds and
rounded down a bit.

figure out. Honda was smart enough to see that an airplane engine alone
was bringing in more money than some of thier cars.

Except they're only looking at jets. People looking for cheap aircraft
aren't looking at jets. Several other car makers have tried aircraft
engine development, and decided it wasn't a money maker. And Continental
and Lycoming will just want to produce smaller versions of their existing
old-technology engines.

As for Cessna's proof of concept. I would be very suprised if it sold
for under $120,000.

I would be very surprised if it wasn't between $90K and $100K, since that
seems to be the competitive price for LSA.

And after they've been on the market a few years, I'll be looking to buy a
used one.

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned
in school. -- A. Einstein

Earlier, Lou wrote:

...
Aircraft should be one thing my country could
excel at. We have everything needed,
materials, knowledge, ability, and desire, but most every aircraft in
this category is either imported or the parts are imported and then
assembled here.

The very most expensive part of manufacturing most things is hourly
wages. So in parts of the globe where hourly wages are high, it's
expensive to make things unless your manufacturing processes are
extremely effecient and effective. Sure, the big Japanese car makers
can run car plants in the US with US workers. But observe that their
manufacturing processes are extremely, extremely effecient. It's
nothing at all like making the sort of things that sell at the low unit
numbers of aircraft and aviation products. Almost everybody's got a
car, but almost nobody owns an airplane.

Further, observe that a great deal of commercial aircraft inspection,
repair, modification, and maintenance has already been outsourced. Now
a lot of it is done in places like South America, Asia, and Eastern
Europe - places that have dedicated specialists combined with low
hourly wages. Yes, we've got everything we need to excel at aircraft
and aviation. But plenty of other countries do too, and many of them
have wage and class structures that makes the most expensive part of it
cheaper.

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24

Paul Tomblin wrote:

As for Cessna's proof of concept. I would be very suprised if it sold
for under $120,000.

I would be very surprised if it wasn't between $90K and $100K, since
that seems to be the competitive price for LSA.

If you see Poland or Tchek LSA (JAR-VLA) plane, you can't expect long
life, made like ultralight.
If you see a C150, you see planes with thousand flying hours....

I would prefer spend $120k for Cessna LSA (or french APM01) than $90k
for an AT3

http://www.apm20lionceau.com/
http://www.edsmart.com/falcon/at3.htm


by
--
Pub: http://www.slowfood.fr/france
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

"Lou" wrote in message
oups.com...
You may be right about the LSA being a response to the mircrolights of
Eroupe, but it was my understanding that LSA was to lower the cost and
requirements of flying. This way USA would increase their pilot
community instead of the current decrease. Now I will agree with you
that Americans need to develop a good engine to compete rather than the
dissappointing choices we have now. Really, how hard can this be for
any of the current engine (not limited to aviation) manufacturer's to
figure out. Honda was smart enough to see that an airplane engine alone
was bringing in more money than some of thier cars.
As for Cessna's proof of concept. I would be very suprised if it sold
for under $120,000.
If this is the case I don't think you will see alot of 152's being
replaced with this airplane. They won't be targeting that group so
their advertising points will not be towards this group. After all if
you can get a plane with the same qualities as a Cessna for $20.000 and
the flight school needs five planes for replacement, It would be like a
buy 5 get one free sale.


I thought flight schools bought new planes, wore them out, then sold them
for $20K?

I don't think it is really fair comparing new plane to used planes anymore
than it is comparing new cars to used cars. What, you just bought a new
Ram pickup for $32K when you could have bought a used one with 150K miles on
it for $10K?

On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:43:13 +0000 (UTC), (Paul
Tomblin) wrote:

You may be right about the LSA being a response to the mircrolights of
Eroupe....

Not precisely. The Sport Pilot limits were established to coincide with the
European Microlight definition. This meant that most, if not all, of the
existing, in-production Microlights already met Sport Pilot. To sell their
aircraft as ready-to-fly in the US, the European manufacturers then merely had
to take their aircraft through the new LSA certification process.

Until the LSA regulations were finalized, a US manufacturer didn't dare produce
an aircraft unless they intended to compete in the already-crowded European
market.

As for Cessna's proof of concept. I would be very suprised if it sold
for under $120,000.

I would be very surprised if it wasn't between $90K and $100K, since that
seems to be the competitive price for LSA.

I've heard that the new Cessna isn't intended as an LSA. It meets the Sport
Pilot limits, but Cessna will supposedly certify it in the Normal category.

It makes a heck of a lot of sense. Cessna has all the corporate processes for a
Normal category certification, and they minimize their liability exposure since
maintenance and inspections will still require A&Ps.

And after they've been on the market a few years, I'll be looking to buy a
used one.

Even better, in a few years, used engines will be available for the homebuilt
market.

Ron Wanttaja

OK,,Want to know what I think about the L.S.A. part in U.S., look and think
about this,,250 pounds of aluminum cost , say two dollars a foot,,drill a
hole in each end of a length of tubing and suddenly it's an airplane part
and cost 50 times the purchase price. Labor is not the total cost of the
rise in price but human greed on the part of the manufacturer..Is anybody
really worth one million dollars a month ON RETIREMENT??? Americans are
spoiled rotten and totally consumed with their own greed . If they have one
good thought about something,instead of sharing, they want to be paid the
rest of their lives for it. We deserve to be destroyed as Sodom and Gomorra
..Even Christ drew a line in the sand and dared others to cross it. We have
no line except each our own and it s drawn in different places as the limit
of our morality .And some of us have none.!!!!
"Lou" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ok, just spent a week at Oshgosh like quite a few of you and, although
I noticed this before it just hasn't changed much. How many LSA's are
made in the U.S.A.? I don't mean assembled, I mean, manufactured. Is it
really impossible for Americans to design, manufacture, and sell
products at a reasonable price and still make a living? Aircraft should
be one thing my country could excel at. We have everything needed,
materials, knowledge, ability, and desire, but most every aircraft in
this category is either imported or the parts are imported and then
assembled here.
I'm not talking about a product that cost more to make than to just
buy a cheap import. Light Sport planes have gone through the roof in
just a matter of a couple of years. You can't convince me that there
isn't a plane that can be designed and manufactured for a competitve
price. It's not that I am against any other country making a buck here.
I'm just very dissapointed in Americans not even trying. What happened
here?
Just a thought.
Lou

...................and just when I thought I was going to have an
intelligent conversation.
Lou