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#11
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One of these days, I'm going for a ride in a Stearman or Waco.....Got to do
it. "David B. Cole" wrote in message m... Patrick, I've already put my name on the list for next year's seminar here in NJ, but I may just have to take a trip to CA to spend a few days there with Rich. In the meantime there is a guy here in NJ that does aerobatics and one of the planes he has is a Stearman, which I would love to fly. He was featured in AOPA Pilot a couple of months ago in the issue where they highlighted Philly in preparation for the Expo. Dave "Flynn" wrote in message news:GHiib.743284$YN5.680572@sccrnsc01... Great write up. I took a 3-day, 5 mission EMT course based on Rich's work down in Arizona this spring and went to a WINGS seminar that Rich did this fall. I completely agree that this is some of the best $ spent after the private lessons. I came away feeling much more in control of the airplane and with significantly enhanced understanding of what it means to fly. And...aerobatics are sooo much fun.! Fly safe and fly fast! -- Patrick Flynn Sammamish, WA Cirrus SR22 N6099Z KRNT "David B. Cole" wrote in message m... Today I had an opportunity to fly with Rich Stowell as part of his annual Emergency Maneuver Training Clinic in NJ. Yesterday we experienced low viz and fairly low ceilings the entire day with even worse forecast for today, so it didn't look good for us. But today turned out to be an almost perfect Fall day with temperatures in the high 60's to lower 70's. Much snipped Dave |
#12
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Yep, I've already checked them out. Remember I sent you their link a
few months ago when I first started to look for local aerobatic operations? Dave Andrew Gideon wrote in message agonline.com... David B. Cole wrote: Patrick, I've already put my name on the list for next year's seminar here in NJ, but I may just have to take a trip to CA to spend a few days there with Rich. In the meantime there is a guy here in NJ that does aerobatics and one of the planes he has is a Stearman, which I would love to fly. He was featured in AOPA Pilot a couple of months ago in the issue where they highlighted Philly in preparation for the Expo. Dave Here? http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pi...8.html#vansant But that's a PA location, no? Still, it doesn't appear to be too far beyond Pittstown. Here's more on what they offer the http://www.vansantairport.com/aeroap.html But the best part...they actually seem to *rent* the Stearman. - Andrew |
#13
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Kevin Horton wrote in message ...
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 20:00:31 -0700, David B. Cole wrote: After takeoff we climbed to about 4000' to do some dutch rolls. Initially I was a little timid with the ailerons, but eventually got it together although my feet were still slower than I would have liked. After the dutch rolls we moved on to a few power-off stalls. Again, you have to be on your toes as the nose has more of a tendency than the 172 to drop off to either side if you're too slow on the rudder. Great write up. One very small nit to pick - I know a lot of people think a dutch roll is a manoeuvre where the pilot it actively making the aircraft roll back and forth around a point. But the term properly means a combined yawing and rolling oscillation that the aircraft does all by itself. It is hard to have clear communication when we have words that mean different things to different people. For a rant on the mis-use of the term dutch roll, see: http://www.douglasdc3.com/sohn/41.htm For what Bill Kershner thinks about it: http://pulsar.westmont.edu/aeronca/d...ques/0080.html For descriptions of what dutch roll is: http://www.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk/aeroxtra/dtcstab7.htm http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/equilib.html And to show that dutch roll is not just an issue with swept-wing jets: http://www.berkutengineering.com/pag...rtav898-3.html Hi Kevin, Pilots picking nits? Who would have guessed ; ) The English language is very colorful, and many terms have multiple meanings depending on the context. In the context of the aerobatic environment, Dutch Roll (note the capitalization, which is customary in this context) is well understood by aerobatic pilots to describe a specific coordination maneuver as opposed to the inherent instability dutch roll common in swept wing aircraft. While it is true that sometimes the use of certain terms can lead to confusion, we nevertheless frequently use terminology that has multiple meanings. For example, ask the airline pilot who is strapping into his aerobatic mount on his day off from his flying job to explain and perform a Dutch Roll, and he will know exactly what is being asked of him. However, ask him to define dutch roll while he's at 35,000 feet in the left seat of his airliner, and he'll likely delve into the aerodynamic issues involved with dutch roll instability. Yes, context is important; but to imply that a particlar phrase or word can and must have one and only one meaning might be a fruitless exercise indeed! Consider the following: We'd have to find another word for "stall" since it means something totally different to me when I'm in my car versus when I'm in my airplane (and there are far more drivers than pilots, so we'd probably lose the battle for exclusive use of that term); We'd have to find another name for "flaps" because, frankly, they don't; The "elevator" does not elevate; "Adding more throttle" or "increasing throttle" doesn't throttle anything; "Snap Rolls" have nothing to do with the roll control. Anyone want to add to this list? Rich http://www.richstowell.com |
#14
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On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:23:12 -0700, Rich Stowell wrote:
Kevin Horton wrote in message ... One very small nit to pick - I know a lot of people think a dutch roll is a manoeuvre where the pilot it actively making the aircraft roll back and forth around a point. But the term properly means a combined yawing and rolling oscillation that the aircraft does all by itself. It is hard to have clear communication when we have words that mean different things to different people. For a rant on the mis-use of the term dutch roll, see: http://www.douglasdc3.com/sohn/41.htm Hi Kevin, Pilots picking nits? Who would have guessed ; ) The English language is very colorful, and many terms have multiple meanings depending on the context. In the context of the aerobatic environment, Dutch Roll (note the capitalization, which is customary in this context) is well understood by aerobatic pilots to describe a specific coordination maneuver as opposed to the inherent instability dutch roll common in swept wing aircraft. While it is true that sometimes the use of certain terms can lead to confusion, we nevertheless frequently use terminology that has multiple meanings. For example, ask the airline pilot who is strapping into his aerobatic mount on his day off from his flying job to explain and perform a Dutch Roll, and he will know exactly what is being asked of him. However, ask him to define dutch roll while he's at 35,000 feet in the left seat of his airliner, and he'll likely delve into the aerodynamic issues involved with dutch roll instability. Yes, context is important; but to imply that a particlar phrase or word can and must have one and only one meaning might be a fruitless exercise indeed! Consider the following: Rich, Yeah, I was probably a bit over-the-top with my post. And my perspective is perhaps clouded by my military and flight test background. I guess the important point to reel in is that we need to be aware of when a term could have more than one meaning, and provide enough context to make the intended meaning clear. I first heard the term Dutch Roll used to describe a coordination manoeuvre a couple of months ago. Before that, if I went flying with you and you asked me to do a Dutch Roll, you would have been baffled to watch me do a rudder doublet and count the yaw overshoots. Poor lateral-directional dynamic stabilty (a.k.a. dutch roll) is not just an issue with swept-wing yets. I've heard many a V-tail Bonanza driver complain about the tail wag, which is just a variant of dutch roll. I'd tell you to keep the blue side up, but you probably don't want to do that Fly safe, -- Kevin Horton Ottawa, Canada e-mail: khorton02(_at_)rogers(_dot_)com http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ |
#15
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Rich Stowell wrote:
Anyone want to add to this list? The preflight checklist for the newer Cessna 172s requires that the fuel shutoff be on. If the shutoff were on, wouldn't the fuel [flow] be shut off? - Andrew P.S. See you in a couple of days. |
#16
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David B. Cole wrote:
Yep, I've already checked them out. Remember I sent you their link a few months ago when I first started to look for local aerobatic operations? So when can we go? I consider myself a reasonable eloquent writer. But I find I've no way to completely express what I felt after taking this course. I could start with the easy stuff. I was nauseated. I'd thought I was beyond that, as it's not occured since early in my training. But I never did anything like this. Before I do it again, I'll be sure to have a care and take precautions (eat some beforehand, no coffee, etc.). I broke all those rules I'd developed for myself because I thought it didn't matter anymore. Ah well. That brings me to "frustrated" and "annoyed with myself". After four spins (and the "basic flying" practiced earlier, like dutch rolls), I decided to not risk the nice interior by continuing with a roll or a loop. Awe is worth mentioning. My entire perspective of flying has shifted. I've read about adverse yaw, for example, but it is so *obvious* in the Super Decathalon! I could see that my footwork needs work; I've permitted myself to become lazy on the rudder - assuming I was ever any better. But I should shift the subject lest I return to "annoyed with myself". So let's look instead at eagerness: I need to do this again. This is a dimension to flying that I never before felt. Even things I thought I knew are changed. I've already mentioned rudders. But I've always responded to stalls with large movements that are apparently unnecessary and overkill. It never occurred to me that I could take a subtle approach. As Dave wrote at the start of this thread, I plan to do more. I've already fired off an email to friends in the LA area asking "so, where is this place relative to you" with regard to the airport where Rich is based. Of course, I know that there's aero taught around here. Dave already has something lined up, I think grin. When are we going? Respect of the airplane also deserves mention. In this one brief flight, I acquired a new feel for how an aircraft responds to its environment (which includes the pilot and his/her instructions to the airplane). Part of this was flying an aircraft far more responsive than I'd ever touched, but part was the "view" that Rich has and explains. For example, it was easy to see the relationship between a chandelle and a half-loop followed by a half-roll (an immelman). One interesting thing I noticed is that a number of the people taking the course were students still working on their PPLs. I envy them that. This is a terrific course, and it teaches a lot about flying. That it also teaches hands-on responses to situations like spins is just the start. - Andrew |
#17
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Andrew,
Glad you enjoyed yourself, but sorry your nausea prevented you from doing the extras. However, at the end of the day you did what was most important. It's wierd, but my stomach was a little uneasy before we took off, probably because of the anticipation. Even during the Dutch Rolls I felt a little off, but felt fine for the duration. I have a tendency to overanalyze things and worry too much about them, and when I actually get around to doing whatever it is, it's never as bad as I expected. What I found funny is that even while doing the stalls, I was still a little concerned about getting into a spin, even though that's the reason why I was there. I guess it came down to mental readiness. I wanted to know exactly when the spin was going to happen, and didn't want to get there from a botched stall, even though I knew I would be doing spins only minutes later. Strange really. Of course now I can probably do stalls and not even consider a wing drop. I'm certainly considering heading out to VanSant if I can't make it out to CA or get on Rich's schedule. Hell, I may even do both. I too have already started looking at info for the area near Rich's airport. I had an instrument lesson today and while I know that I'm more confident in my flying because of the training, for some reason I couldn't get anything right today and I left the airport in a very bad mood. Perhaps I felt that my newfound confidence would translate to my IR flying and I would come out of today's lesson ready for the checkride. But I did notice that I was a lot less reluctant to muscle the plane when necessary, especially with the turbulence we experienced today. With regard to the rudder, I admit that my rudder skills are a weakness as well. That's why I'm considering combining the acro time with a tailwheel checkout after I'm done witht the IR. Again, I don't think I could have spent the money any better than flying with Rich. Dave Andrew Gideon wrote in message gonline.com... David B. Cole wrote: Yep, I've already checked them out. Remember I sent you their link a few months ago when I first started to look for local aerobatic operations? So when can we go? I consider myself a reasonable eloquent writer. But I find I've no way to completely express what I felt after taking this course. I could start with the easy stuff. I was nauseated. I'd thought I was beyond that, as it's not occured since early in my training. But I never did anything like this. Before I do it again, I'll be sure to have a care and take precautions (eat some beforehand, no coffee, etc.). I broke all those rules I'd developed for myself because I thought it didn't matter anymore. Ah well. That brings me to "frustrated" and "annoyed with myself". After four spins (and the "basic flying" practiced earlier, like dutch rolls), I decided to not risk the nice interior by continuing with a roll or a loop. Awe is worth mentioning. My entire perspective of flying has shifted. I've read about adverse yaw, for example, but it is so *obvious* in the Super Decathalon! I could see that my footwork needs work; I've permitted myself to become lazy on the rudder - assuming I was ever any better. But I should shift the subject lest I return to "annoyed with myself". So let's look instead at eagerness: I need to do this again. This is a dimension to flying that I never before felt. Even things I thought I knew are changed. I've already mentioned rudders. But I've always responded to stalls with large movements that are apparently unnecessary and overkill. It never occurred to me that I could take a subtle approach. As Dave wrote at the start of this thread, I plan to do more. I've already fired off an email to friends in the LA area asking "so, where is this place relative to you" with regard to the airport where Rich is based. Of course, I know that there's aero taught around here. Dave already has something lined up, I think grin. When are we going? Respect of the airplane also deserves mention. In this one brief flight, I acquired a new feel for how an aircraft responds to its environment (which includes the pilot and his/her instructions to the airplane). Part of this was flying an aircraft far more responsive than I'd ever touched, but part was the "view" that Rich has and explains. For example, it was easy to see the relationship between a chandelle and a half-loop followed by a half-roll (an immelman). One interesting thing I noticed is that a number of the people taking the course were students still working on their PPLs. I envy them that. This is a terrific course, and it teaches a lot about flying. That it also teaches hands-on responses to situations like spins is just the start. - Andrew |
#18
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Rich Stowell wrote:
We'd have to find another name for "flaps" because, frankly, they don't; The "elevator" does not elevate; "Adding more throttle" or "increasing throttle" doesn't throttle anything; "Snap Rolls" have nothing to do with the roll control. Anyone want to add to this list? "World Series"? BTW: I too am a 'graduate' of a Rich Stowell weekend of spins, or more correctly EMT. I also own his EMT book (www.amazon.com) and videos (books and videos available from http://www.richstowell.com/shop.htm). It was an excellent learning experience. My opinion is that (some amount of) spin training should be part of the pilot certificate training - but that's for another thread. Rich's does great FAA Wings Seminars too. Did I mention Rich is a great guy? Check him out at http://www.richstowell.com Hilton |
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