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#91
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1 Fatal ...r.a.h or r.a.p?
"Mark Hickey" wrote in message ... "Wayne Paul" wrote: You must also keep in mind that the turn radius of a 45 degree bank at 50 kts is only 250 feet. But how many aircraft will continue flying at 50 kts in a 45 degree bank? Not many, I'd wager... Mark, The example was for a moderate performance glider which, at 50 kts, can make a 180 degree turn in less than 10 seconds. Most sailplanes circle in thermals with bank angles of 45 degrees, or higher, at around 50 kts. The following links show the specifications for my Schreder HP-14 homebuilt sailplane. http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP...ifications.htm Links to pictures of my HP-14. http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP...Test_Ready.jpg http://www.soaridaho.com/photogaller.../17900_MSL.jpg http://www.soaridaho.com/photogaller...r_Mt_Range.jpg Wayne HP-14 N990 "6F" |
#92
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1 Fatal ...r.a.h or r.a.p?
But how many aircraft will continue flying at 50 kts in a 45 degree
bank? Not many, I'd wager... I wouldn't make any bets on that. Since you used the word "aircraft" which includes gliders and not "airplane", the answer is tens of thousands of gliders will do that. Typically, ~25% of a gliders flight time will be flown in a 45 degree bank circling in thermals. The rest will be in 'high' (100 Kts) speed cruise between thermals. My Nimbus will fly quite happily in a 45 degree bank at 40 Kts while sinking 120 FPM. That circle is 300 feet in diameter. Turning back to the departure runway from 200 feet AGL will leave the glider WAY above glidepath requiring heavy airbrake use to avoid overshooting the runway. In straight flight, my Nimbus doesn't so much stall as it just flies so slow that the controls lose their grip on the air. The big wing just keeps flying. Bill Daniels |
#93
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1 Fatal ...r.a.h or r.a.p?
"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message . .. But how many aircraft will continue flying at 50 kts in a 45 degree bank? Not many, I'd wager... I wouldn't make any bets on that. Since you used the word "aircraft" which includes gliders and not "airplane", the answer is tens of thousands of gliders will do that. Typically, ~25% of a gliders flight time will be flown in a 45 degree bank circling in thermals. The rest will be in 'high' (100 Kts) speed cruise between thermals. My Nimbus will fly quite happily in a 45 degree bank at 40 Kts while sinking 120 FPM. That circle is 300 feet in diameter. Turning back to the departure runway from 200 feet AGL will leave the glider WAY above glidepath requiring heavy airbrake use to avoid overshooting the runway. In straight flight, my Nimbus doesn't so much stall as it just flies so slow that the controls lose their grip on the air. The big wing just keeps flying. Bill, Which Nimbus version do fly? (Wing span?) I need to come to Colorado and get winch qualified. I think winch launches in my HP-14 would be a "blast!!" Wayne http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder |
#94
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1 Fatal ...r.a.h or r.a.p?
"Wayne Paul" wrote in message ... "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message . .. But how many aircraft will continue flying at 50 kts in a 45 degree bank? Not many, I'd wager... I wouldn't make any bets on that. Since you used the word "aircraft" which includes gliders and not "airplane", the answer is tens of thousands of gliders will do that. Typically, ~25% of a gliders flight time will be flown in a 45 degree bank circling in thermals. The rest will be in 'high' (100 Kts) speed cruise between thermals. My Nimbus will fly quite happily in a 45 degree bank at 40 Kts while sinking 120 FPM. That circle is 300 feet in diameter. Turning back to the departure runway from 200 feet AGL will leave the glider WAY above glidepath requiring heavy airbrake use to avoid overshooting the runway. In straight flight, my Nimbus doesn't so much stall as it just flies so slow that the controls lose their grip on the air. The big wing just keeps flying. Bill, Which Nimbus version do fly? (Wing span?) I need to come to Colorado and get winch qualified. I think winch launches in my HP-14 would be a "blast!!" Wayne http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder I fly a Nimbus 2C with winglets (soon). Winch launch is a blast. Short of a carrier catapult or a space shuttle launch, it's the most acceleration you will ever experience in an aircraft. (0 - 60 in 2 - 3 seconds.) I know nothing about the HP-14's characteristics on a winch launch. I'd suggest youi discuss it with someone who does. I think that Dick Schreder designed them exclusively for air tow so, whicle it may work just fine, there might be issues. Bill Daniels |
#95
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1 Fatal ...r.a.h or r.a.p?
"Roger" wrote The only way to do that is to never get in an airplane. Here we only have one runway out of four that really gives you an out and even then you are looking at merging with express way traffic, IF you can make it over, or under the over pass. Engines quit, even new ones. Some times they give warning and a lot of times they don't. Mine quit on take off with no warning, not even a hiccup. It went from full power to silence all of a sudden. You will have to excuse "tater shouldn't" - he's our new troll. of the month. -- Jim in NC |
#96
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1 Fatal ...r.a.h or r.a.p?
"Roger" wrote in message ... On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 10:12:53 -0600, "Tater Schuld" wrote: I dont know. doing this at altitude makes the manuver safe, and learning to perfect it that way can give the pilot overconfidence. best to make sure your'e never in the situation that call for such a The only way to do that is to never get in an airplane. Here we only have one runway out of four that really gives you an out and even then you are looking at merging with express way traffic, IF you can make it over, or under the over pass. what I meant was that you shouldn't have been in the situation that you didn't already have things planned out. the flight in question the pilot tried to turn when he shouldn't have. he was close(?) to the altitude limit that told him that he should fly straight but tried to turn. my point is that if you practice the turn at altitude, it does not give the same experience as doing it at the same altitude as the engine failure. to properly do this, you'd have to practice the turn at the actual height of the engine failure. that would be risky, but trying to duplicate it at high altitudes eliminates variables that change. I really cant explain this too well. If I was the pilot, I would have a set altitude that I would never attempt the turn at in the situation, and stick to that. it would definitely be higher than needed. |
#97
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1 Fatal ...r.a.h or r.a.p?
"Morgans" wrote in message ... "Roger" wrote The only way to do that is to never get in an airplane. that might be the best thing to do sometimes. but it seems that a lot of crashes are caused either by the pilot choosing a course of action that he shouldn't have, or a mechanical failure and that is what i mean by "not getting into that situation", as pilot in command, you *should* be able to (instantly) react to any situation, in a manner that gets the plane down safely. the incident in question was wether the pilot should have gone stright or turned. one of the things that stops me from going out and geting my liscence is that there are some situations that i dont see how to get a safe solution from. the more i ask though, the more of things i can plan to avoid. Here we only have one runway out of four that really gives you an out and even then you are looking at merging with express way traffic, IF you can make it over, or under the over pass. sounds like a nightmare. how does one confidently plan for failure contingencies? Engines quit, even new ones. Some times they give warning and a lot of times they don't. Mine quit on take off with no warning, not even a hiccup. It went from full power to silence all of a sudden. I don't understand if you completely know your engine inside and out, have given pet names to all of the little nuts and bolts, why is the engine quiting? You will have to excuse "tater shouldn't" - he's our new troll. of the month. I apologize. I honest am not trying to be a troll. I am trying to find a way to fly an airplane, how to avoid dangerous situations, and how to do it on a common mans income. threads like these help explain why certain accidents happen, and how to avoid them. |
#98
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1 Fatal ...r.a.h or r.a.p?
On Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:11:35 -0600, "Tater Schuld"
wrote: "Morgans" wrote in message ... "Roger" wrote The only way to do that is to never get in an airplane. that might be the best thing to do sometimes. but it seems that a lot of crashes are caused either by the pilot choosing a course of action that he shouldn't have, or a mechanical failure Outside of "divine intervention" those are about the only two possibilities I can think of. Most accidents come from a string of actions or inactions, not just a single mistake although sometimes, "getting up in the morning" might count. and that is what i mean by "not getting into that situation", as pilot in command, you *should* be able to (instantly) react to any situation, in a manner that gets the plane down safely. the incident in question was wether the pilot should have gone stright or turned. Nature has a way of playing tricks on us. Weather not associated with frontal activity going down over wide areas in five minutes or so (been there, done that), or frontal activity triggering activity over a wide area, or fronts stopping and backing up as fast as they were going the other way. one of the things that stops me from going out and geting my liscence is that there are some situations that i dont see how to get a safe solution from. the more i ask though, the more of things i can plan to avoid. The same is true of driving a car, or more so. I had an SUV come shooting out of a parking lot onto the highway with all 4 burning. I managed to leave about 12 feet of skid marks before shortening up my Trans Am by a couple of feet. I lost a friend when a truck lost a wheel. They figured he never saw it coming. Those wheels are big and heavy. A cousin was driving down a small street and of all things, collided with a horse. Something caused the horse to shy and bolt out onto the street, over his hood and ended up going through the wind shield. It put the rider as well as both my cousin and his wife in the hospital. They had to put the horse down. Here we only have one runway out of four that really gives you an out and even then you are looking at merging with express way traffic, IF you can make it over, or under the over pass. sounds like a nightmare. how does one confidently plan for failure contingencies? Aim for the softest objects with the smallest number of people. (that was not a joke). Do not pick streets and roads unless all the other alternatives are big, hard, and contain lots of people. They are the first thing most pilots think of when it gets real quiet. Unless it's a deserted expressway, I'll take an empty field any day and even some of those have power and telephone lines across them. I have confidence in the Deb as it has only failed once in over a 1000 hours of flying. I've had radios fail, both nav and com. I've had three AI failures and one tach failure as well as one tach cable failure. The first AI failure was the day after bringing the Deb home in a storm. Engines quit, even new ones. Some times they give warning and a lot of times they don't. Mine quit on take off with no warning, not even a hiccup. It went from full power to silence all of a sudden. I don't understand if you completely know your engine inside and out, have given pet names to all of the little nuts and bolts, why is the engine quiting? It got tired of being taken apart, or developed hostility due to those "pet names" involving canine ancestry, unnatural acts and incestuous relationships, I've given it. You will have to excuse "tater shouldn't" - he's our new troll. of the month. Ah, I'll treat this thread as legit...for the time being:-)) I apologize. I honest am not trying to be a troll. I am trying to find a way to fly an airplane, how to avoid dangerous situations, You can minimize the number of dangerous situations to which you are exposed, but you will never eliminate them. and how to do it on a common mans income. threads like these help explain why certain accidents happen, and how to avoid them. Airplanes like any other machines will break from time to time. They are quite reliable even with the old technology. Given proper care and treatment they may go a long time between failures. With training and thought we can avoid *most* accidents, but not all. As for the ones that come looking for us, all we can do is be as prepared as well as possible. The thing is: There is absolutely nothing we do that comes without risk. If we stayed home and tried to stay safe we'd all probably die early deaths from heart attacks from being out of shape. Cars have driven off the road and into some one's home, killing them where they sat of slept. Airliners have crashed into homes (again a very rare event). People fall down and break something vital. We take vitamins for years only to find the dye in the pills causes cancer. Mice get into wiring causing homes to burn down, furnaces develop carbon monoxide leaks, and lightning strikes kill quite a few people every year. Life is about risk management whether we do it consciously or subconsciously. Every movement, every action is accompanied by some amount of risk in one form or another. People are now living longer than ever, but they are doing so by staying active longer and that exposes them to risks they'd have never seen had they lived the average life span a century ago. You decide what you want to do as in this case, flying. You learn as much as you can, you learn your limitations, and your airplane's limitations. You learn and practice what to do when things go wrong. You practice to the point where you do not have to think about what to do with emergency procedures. With enough practice you body will react to things faster than you can consciously recognize what is happening as with engine failures. In addition to flying one of my hobbies is Amateur Radio. http://www.rogerhalstead.com/ham_files/Tower29.htm In that photo I'm working a bit over 100 feet above my wife who shot the picture. I have spent as many as 8 hours up there at one time (not recently) If we only go around once I want to enjoy it. I do nothing that exceeds my risk tolerance limits and I do have limits. Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair) www.rogerhalstead.com |
#99
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1 Fatal ...r.a.h or r.a.p?
On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 14:21:32 -0500, T o d d P a t t i s t
wrote: For anyone that's interested, here's a PIREP I posted on practicing the turnback maneuver. _____________ I believe AOPA has a tape called "The impossible Turn" that addresses issues such as learning just how much altitude you need in your particular plane to be able to safely complete the maneuver. Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair) www.rogerhalstead.com |
#100
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1 Fatal ...r.a.h or r.a.p?
Several years ago in the Wide World of Flying video series (Volume 5, Number
18), captain Barry Schiff did a segment about this very topic. He recommended practicing a 360 turn at altitude, with 45 degree bank at best glide speed. In a climb, reduce power to idle, wait a few seconds to simulate the time it takes for reality to soak in, then get the nose down to establish glide speed. After rolling out level from the 360, pull up in a landing flare to arrest the descent and see how much altitude was lost. In a 172, if you really nail it you can lose 500 feet. 700 feet or more can result if you don't do it just right. Kevin Davidson "Bryan Martin" wrote in message ... In a "normal landing" you start a half mile to a mile to one side of the runway and only require about 180 degrees of turn. In a turn back maneuver after takeoff, you are nearly directly off the end of the runway. Turning back to the runway from this position requires far more than 180 degrees of turn. So calling it a 180 degree turn back can be misleading. 180 degrees of turn will usually put you well to one side of the runway so you must continue turning until you are headed back towards the runway and then turn back the opposite direction to line up with it. This maneuver requires closer to 360 degrees of turn than 180 and you will lose altitude faster while turning than when flying wings level. So before you attempt a turn back, you need to know how much altitude you will need for a 360 degree turn. If you are taking off from an airport with more than one runway, you might consider if it would be easier to turn back to a different runway than the one you took off from. One time during a BFR, my instructor pulled the throttle at about 500' after takeoff from runway 6 at Midland Barstow. He expected me to attempt to return to land on runway 24. He was kind of surprised when I just made a gentle 240 degree left turn and rolled out lined up with runway 18 with altitude to spare. I just looked back and realized it would be much easier to get to 18 than 24, the wind was blowing us that way anyway. -- Bryan Martin in article , Highflyer at wrote on 2/4/06 11:14 PM: It seems to me that when I learned to fly the normal landing was a "power off" landing. You always cut the power on the downwind leg heading away from the airport and from the end of the runway. Then, after a little while, you proceeded to make a 180 degree turn back to the airport and landed. This was done with the engine cut to idle. Sometimes, they cut even beyond idle and quit completely! :-) It was called a normal landing and you were supposed to do all of them that way. Clearly there is some altitude and distance from the end of the runway where a "turnback" type maneuver is no problem at all, and actually closely approximates the normal landing of my youth. Equally clearly there is also some altitude and distance from the end of the runway where such a "turnback" maneuver is clearly impossible. Obviously the trick is knowing exactly where in the range between A and B that you are at the moment the engine quits and behaving accordingly. Most flight instructors cop out totally and just say "Go straight ahead." Personally, I have had engine failures on "takeoff" where straight ahead was best. I have had engine failures on "takeoff" where "turnback" was best. And I even had ONE engine failure on "takeoff" where neither "turnback" nor "straight ahead" would work and I had to do something creative! :-) Highflyer Highflight Aviation Services Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY ) |
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